I don't like this threat much, and I am not the only one

[flyingmachine]

opinions needed from the borg, please!

My son is in year 5 and will soon be going on a week long school trip to an outdoor centre in the Lake District with his class. All parents have coughed up the required nearly £200.00 for this little jaunt.

However, a week before the deadline for payment, we were all given a letter from the school. It stated that any child missing their weekly golden time for 2 out of the next 8 weeks would not be allowed to go on the trip. No exceptions to this rule. Parents have been asked to sign a form stating that they are aware of this proposal.

Children miss a golden time if they are given a certain number of bad marks during the week. It's part of a reward/punishment system, but suffice to say that missing a golden time is relatively easy to do. You don't have to be outrageously bad. Many boys and some girls on average miss one or two a term.

So we now have a situation where some children stand a very real chance of being banned from the school trip. As the banning will happen at a late stage, it is unlikely that parents will be reimbursed anything like their full £200.00 if this happens.

At least one boy has already missed a one golden time and is near to missing another one. And there is still six weeks to go!

Aa far as I am aware - and I have been asking around - in previous years these sanctions have not been imposed. And there was no warning that we would get a letter like this. But my son's year is seen as a 'difficult' year.

Taking the school's point of view, health and safety issues are of great importance on a week-long holiday. As the letter states, teachers cannot take responsiblity for children who do not follow instructions and generally misbehave.

But - if health and safely are such concerns, then surely the adult child ratio should be improved? if my son's year is full of 'difficult' children, why not get more adults to come along to help? is this beyond financial possibily?

I am lucky so far in that my son is behaving himself. I am prepared for the fact that he might miss one golden time in the next 6 weeks, but so far so good. However, it wasn't that long ago that he was missing golden times a lot and I know what it feels like to have a son who won't abide by small but important rules.

I know the mother of one of the children who has already missed a golden time. She is really worried and cross that her hard earned cash could be wasted. And if the worst happens, she will have to cope with a son who will be devastated to miss out, and singled out from his class in such a wounding way. In the end, parents have no direct control over how children behave in the 7 hours each day they are at school. And some teachers at this school give out bad points for things as small as leaving a shirt untucked.

And is it fair to punish children twice? they get their golden time taken away - plus they miss the holiday.

And what about the poor teacher, knowing a child is but one small mark away from missing a holiday - will they still give out that last bad mark? It puts them in a horrible position. Or what about a visiting teacher who gives out that last bad point not realising what's at stake?

Many parents, me included, have not returned our signed form. But from the tone of the letter, it looks like this will not affect the outcome anyway. Our signature is only meant as confirmation that we have received the letter. Has anyone any thoughts on this? it's been presented to us as a fait accompli.

Ps - yes, it's me again!

Hiya! I just remembered this thread (as you do!) and wondered if you have an update for us flyingmachine? Are all the children still going to be going?

Well, with 3 weeks to so, 2 or 3 children have missed one golden time and one child has missed 2 golden times, so my son informs me. The mother of the child who missed two apparently had an extremely 'lively discusssion' with the head. He agreed to give the boy one last chance - he'd missed his golden time in the first two weeks, so still had six weeks to go. Another boy in danger of losing his second golden time didn't turn up at school for a day just before the weekly deadline - don't know the reason, but at least he couldn't get any bad marks if he was not there....

I get the distinct impression that my son's teacher is holding back on giving out as many bad points as usual. Perhaps there's a little bit of internal disagreement between the head and her.

Only just caught this thread. We had a similar experience in Y6. DS2, who has ADHD, controlled (in the main) by ritalin, was at a private primary school on an Assisted Place. There was always a week's residential trip in June for Y6, which the children knew about from Y3 onwards. ALL the work of the summer term was connected to this trip- geography, history, english- both before and after, and it was compulsory.

In the March, DH & me were going to Italy for a week, & went in to school to ask if DS could board while we were away (DD was also boarding, & DS1 & DS3 were going to grandparents).

They called us in to a meeting with the Head, various teachers & the houseparents to discuss whether they could chance having him to board, which we found odd. Once the meeting started it transpired they had been planning to exclude him from the class trip, under H&S concerns, having not mentioned it to us before. I still wonder what would have happened if we hadn't pre-empted this, & how close to the trip they would have told us he wasn't going.

As it turned out, the housefather agreed to let him board (against his wife's wishes, it must be said) on the condition that they had some contact numbers and if they had a problem someone would pick him up IMMEDIATELY. He behaved beautifully all week, as we expected, and as a result there was no more talk about him missing the trip.

Can you imagine what that would have done for his already low self-esteem? Being the only one in the whole of year 6 not allowed on the trip, and having to carry on the work afterwards. I would have taken the week off work and gone with him (and paid for it if need be) if they wouldn't take him.

I can appreciate the H&S concerns but there are ways round this sort of problem. In our case there was only a small charge & that was after the event. We also had to agree to go and collect him if there was any trouble (200 miles). I was quite prepared to do that, as I felt that was reasonable. I just don't think it is reasonable to exclude children from compulsory trips without trying all avenues first.

I really agree with your last sentance, tallulah. Especially in your case as you sound like you are a very supportive parent from the school's point of view. I imagine teachers saying that not all parents would be prepared to make a 200 mile trip at a moment's notice to pick up their child if there was a problem. I guess if a school is faced with a very unruly child (not like your son) and uncooperative parents, then the problem is worse. I too think it's a good idea to offer parents the chance to accompany their child on a trip, and take full responsibility for them, if their behaviour is a H & S issue. Of course lots of parents can't do this, but at least it is an avenue to try.

Just for the record, my son missed his golden time yesterday, so for the next three weeks he has to keep out of trouble or else he risks missing the trip. Another boy missed his third golden time yesterday, so as far as I know, he is out His behaviour is a bit of a problem generally from what I can gather. I am not aware that he is ADHD etc,(although he could have) but I don't know what will happen to him now. It appears my son has been playing with him a lot this week - being silly - so perhaps there's a rising group of 'rebels' who are seeking recruits. I guess if this child misses the trip it could be tempting for him to get others to miss it too and keep him company. Not that my son needs much pushing to be naughty. I'd never blame some other child for getting mine into trouble. He is old enough to stand back.

The teacher had a word with my husband and said that as the law has changed, individual teachers are now legally responsible for H & S and can get sent to prison, so they have to protect themselves more. That's why they can't risk taking children if they are likely to misbehave.

If the law has changed, it sounds to me that the whole school trip idea should be rethought and as you say, tallulah, other avenues should be explored.

I really agree with your last sentance, tallulah. Especially in your case as you sound like you are a very supportive parent from the school's point of view. I imagine teachers saying that not all parents would be prepared to make a 200 mile trip at a moment's notice to pick up their child if there was a problem. I guess if a school is faced with a very unruly child (not like your son) and uncooperative parents, then the problem is worse. I too think it's a good idea to offer parents the chance to accompany their child on a trip, and take full responsibility for them, if their behaviour is a H & S issue. Of course lots of parents can't do this, but at least it is an avenue to try.

Just for the record, my son missed his golden time yesterday, so for the next three weeks he has to keep out of trouble or else he risks missing the trip. Another boy missed his third golden time yesterday, so as far as I know, he is out His behaviour is a bit of a problem generally from what I can gather. I am not aware that he is ADHD etc,(although he could have) but I don't know what will happen to him now. It appears my son has been playing with him a lot this week - being silly - so perhaps there's a rising group of 'rebels' who are seeking recruits. I guess if this child misses the trip it could be tempting for him to get others to miss it too and keep him company. Not that my son needs much pushing to be naughty. I'd never blame some other child for getting mine into trouble. He is old enough to stand back.

The teacher had a word with my husband and said that as the law has changed, individual teachers are now legally responsible for H & S and can get sent to prison, so they have to protect themselves more. That's why they can't risk taking children if they are likely to misbehave.

If the law has changed, it sounds to me that the whole school trip idea should be rethought and as you say, tallulah, other avenues should be explored.

oh - I am now uncovered

Whoops! Obviously your age ... Happy Birthday TM!

tigermoth=flyingmachine, kinda got the connection

help! things are not going well. To cut a long story short, ds has had an awful couple of weeks at school.

Last Friday he was within a hair's breath of missing his second goldentime, and hence not going on the school trip. It is now a new week so he started with a clean slate, but has already clocked up half his allowance of bad marks. We have tried banning everything and I mean everything, sending him to bed early, sending him to his room, making him do extra homework, making his write 'holiday' on the back of his hand so he can remind himself of his goal throughout the day. We have talked to him, and not just 'you must do better or else' pep talks. No - we have also tried to delve into his psyche by asking him if he really doesn't want to go on the trip and this is his way of getting out of it? His best friend at school(who is very well behaved)really wants him to go, too. He is looking out for him and wags a finger at ds if he looks like he's getting too naughty. All to no avail.

I have decided to go in to speak to ds's teacher early tomorrow morning, just to see if she can throw light on what's happening. Apparently ds is being silly - not defiantly naughty. I don't know what good talking to the teacher will do. I saw her just two weeks ago at parents evening and she was saying how ds's behaviour has improved (which is true - until recently).

The head had told us ds will miss the trip if he loses another golden time. Don't know if he means it. One boy had already missed the trip (but he's going to Greece instead). Another boy went over his golden time limit, but has been allowed one more chance.

Any comments or advice welcome.

Goodness, Tigermoth, how difficult. I think that the 'holiday' on the back of the hand is inspired.

Can the teacher do something to help him to focus for smaller periods of time? Marbles in a jar sometimes help a child to break the time down into managable portions. Beeing 'good' all day can seem too much, but 10 minutes at a time can be 'do able'

How about small rewards each day....the holiday may be too far away to be a reward, he may not be able to connect the two, but an ice cream after he has his tea??

Is he sitting by a friend who 'helps' the silliness? Can he be placed by a more sensible child, possibly a girl? I know that he will hate it, but it might be what he needs for the short term. Sadly I often have to sit children boy/girl to stop silly behaviour (in secondary). I hate doing it, but it always seems to work.

Hope that things get better soon

I'm not aware of any teachers going to prison even if child has been killed on a trip. Even if one has, they should be able to supervise to prevent deaths. IMO schools and teaching unions are over-reacting. After all, there are constant calls for company directors to face the full weight of the law when people are killed.

Sorry this is still dragging on Tigermoth, and not going well - when is the trip? Could tallulah's scenario help you - i.e. if you agree with school that you would go and fetch him if there's serious trouble, would the school be more flexible/forgiving? ... I realise it's a very long way for you, and you have work commitments, but that sort of promise might help from the school's point of view, and the threat might help from your son's point of view ...?!

Teachers that I know all dislike this half term most, because it drags on with little to look forward to, the weather is still poor, and the kids all end up being .... yes, you guessed it, very silly.

Btw does he generally respond well to promised rewards? DS1 will do (and always has done) ANYTHING for the promise of a sticker! DS2 just doesn't care - rewards/bribes just don't seem to motivate him. Must be something about their make-up.

eddm, there was a tragic case not that long ago where a child died on a trip, the supervising teacher was found guilty and was sent to prison. The child was not a pupils at the school, but was there with his mother who worked at the school. Even though the parent was present on the trip, the teacher was still held responsible and was sent to prison.

Teachers are becoming uncreasinly reticent to take children on school trips becoause of cases like this.

The school may be refusing to take some children because the honestly feel that they would be unable to supervise the fully to enable their safely. I have taught children that I would not take on a trip because their behaviour was so bad (secondary age)

tigermoth, I've come late to this one - what exactly is DS doing to get in such trouble he misses goldentime? (And what is goldentime?)

Ouch tigermoth, I don't know what you can do either except maybe talk to his teacher and find out what she suggests. It does seem terribly unfair that he might miss it because of one bit of silliness. I hope you manage to find something that motivates him.

well, as I thought, the teacher had no magic insights into what's going on. However it was very rewarding talking to her. She gave my son three minus marks yesterday for deliberately leaving a line of children before break time and running out into the playground a moment or two before he should. So he was missing when the teacher did a head count. As she said, running off like this is exactly the sort of thing he must not do on holiday. But when my son recounted the story to me last night, all he said was he got three minus marks for standing in the wrong line (eh?). He did not see the full implications, or he did not want to admit them to himself. He has never done this particular silly thing before either. The teacher says she will spell it out to him - not listening to instructions and not being where he should, is not on, expecially right now. I suggested she gave examples of holiday situations, too.

Ds's sillyness covers things like talking, singing or dancing when he shouldn't, rocking in his chair, making faces in assembly. I know when he's looking forward to something he can get like this. Once we embark on a trip he calms down, but still, he is nearly 10 years old, not a toddler.

The teacher said she really was not trying to exclude him or anyone else - she wanted him to come - but as a parent herself, she took her responsibilities extremely seriously. I can see why, given the way the legislation is going.

Tallulah's suggestion did give me an idea - I said that if my son was causing any problems on the trip, his grandparents would collect him. The holiday place is a 90 minute drive away from their home. I've also asked the teacher to speak to me or dh if ds's behaviour gets to crisis point.

His best(and very well behaved) friend had already got the nickname ***'s guardian angel. He sits next to ds in many lessons and is working overtime at the moment, so I gather, in keeping him on the straight and narrow. Good idea about trying a daily rewards regime - one yughio card a day for being good could work well.

ds1 gets hopelessly excited (and silly) about forthcoming events too ... Today he was beside himself looking forward to his afterschool football club ...! I was hoping in a couple of years he might be calming down a little, and learning to keep his emotions in check ... sounds like there's little hope of that.

I'm glad your conversation with the teacher was a positive one, and that you do have the last-ditch option/threat of grandparents within reach of him. ... Hope you don't have to use it.

Sound like he's got a terrific mate as well watching out for him. That's good news. Hope his/your week improves soon.

Tigermoth, this definitely sounds like excitement to me ( there is a boy in dd's class who expresses his excitement at outings etc in a similar way). The problem is, they don't see it as naughty behaviour because they're not trying to be naughty. It's terrible to be punished for being enthusiastic.

Another bad day - two more minus points. Glad you all seem to think it's excitement. I think so too. Dh and I both feel the pressure to be good, the mounting threats from us at home, the friend looking out for him and the sheer prospect of being excluded if he misses one more golden time are all adding to the drama and excitiment of the occasion. Cam as you say it is horrible to be punished for enthusiasm. I can see both the teacher's and ds's point of view.

We are backing off a bit this evening. I will talk to him later about specific holiday behaviour requirements to make sure he sees the implications, but I don't think reason will work right now either. Don't know where this is going to be honest.

Seek a lawyer, that is ridiculous, if they ahd mentioned that before then maybe...
GRRR tantamount to blackmail

message withdrawn

difficult to answer this. I think he will be going, but I also think the teachers have bent the rules a little. My son has been getting less minus marks, but also more warnings of getting minus marks. His teachers seem definte about him going. So fingers crossed. He only has 3 more judgement days to go.

But I know one boy has been banned - he has the most challenging behaviour in the class, I believe. I don't know if his parents fought the ban or were happy for him to miss out (another boy would have missed the trip, but his parents saw the head and he was given a second chance) The first boy is now going abroad on holiday for that week, so wouldn't want to go anyway. But everyone says he was excluded from the trip.

I do feel that the rules have been used to stop this boy going. To be honest, if the rules were used as strictly as the letter stated, I doubt if my son would be going either. I feel the whole idea of exclusion due to missing golden time was wrong. It is not an honest way of going about things. Perhaps, though, the teachers felt it might save face (not just theirs, but also the other boys parents)by making the rules an excuse for excluding, rather than bringing in the parents for a talk. I just don't know.

True robinw, but the child's mother was also on the trip. So the teacher was held responsible even when the parent was present, with all the parental rights and responsibilities. I would be very, very wary about taking children on anything other than a museum visit, which is a shame.