I don't like this threat much, and I am not the only one

[flyingmachine]

opinions needed from the borg, please!

My son is in year 5 and will soon be going on a week long school trip to an outdoor centre in the Lake District with his class. All parents have coughed up the required nearly £200.00 for this little jaunt.

However, a week before the deadline for payment, we were all given a letter from the school. It stated that any child missing their weekly golden time for 2 out of the next 8 weeks would not be allowed to go on the trip. No exceptions to this rule. Parents have been asked to sign a form stating that they are aware of this proposal.

Children miss a golden time if they are given a certain number of bad marks during the week. It's part of a reward/punishment system, but suffice to say that missing a golden time is relatively easy to do. You don't have to be outrageously bad. Many boys and some girls on average miss one or two a term.

So we now have a situation where some children stand a very real chance of being banned from the school trip. As the banning will happen at a late stage, it is unlikely that parents will be reimbursed anything like their full £200.00 if this happens.

At least one boy has already missed a one golden time and is near to missing another one. And there is still six weeks to go!

Aa far as I am aware - and I have been asking around - in previous years these sanctions have not been imposed. And there was no warning that we would get a letter like this. But my son's year is seen as a 'difficult' year.

Taking the school's point of view, health and safety issues are of great importance on a week-long holiday. As the letter states, teachers cannot take responsiblity for children who do not follow instructions and generally misbehave.

But - if health and safely are such concerns, then surely the adult child ratio should be improved? if my son's year is full of 'difficult' children, why not get more adults to come along to help? is this beyond financial possibily?

I am lucky so far in that my son is behaving himself. I am prepared for the fact that he might miss one golden time in the next 6 weeks, but so far so good. However, it wasn't that long ago that he was missing golden times a lot and I know what it feels like to have a son who won't abide by small but important rules.

I know the mother of one of the children who has already missed a golden time. She is really worried and cross that her hard earned cash could be wasted. And if the worst happens, she will have to cope with a son who will be devastated to miss out, and singled out from his class in such a wounding way. In the end, parents have no direct control over how children behave in the 7 hours each day they are at school. And some teachers at this school give out bad points for things as small as leaving a shirt untucked.

And is it fair to punish children twice? they get their golden time taken away - plus they miss the holiday.

And what about the poor teacher, knowing a child is but one small mark away from missing a holiday - will they still give out that last bad mark? It puts them in a horrible position. Or what about a visiting teacher who gives out that last bad point not realising what's at stake?

Many parents, me included, have not returned our signed form. But from the tone of the letter, it looks like this will not affect the outcome anyway. Our signature is only meant as confirmation that we have received the letter. Has anyone any thoughts on this? it's been presented to us as a fait accompli.

Ps - yes, it's me again!

I agree that you cannot deal with the behaviour of your children within school, that would be impossible. But I don't think that absolves parents of all responsibility for their child's actions within school, because, as you posted, parents are responsible for setting the limits on a child's behaviour from birth. Sadly some parents don't seem to bother.

Is there dicipline in school? Well, yes, we try very hard and have an agreed code. Sadly lots of the kids don't stick to it, and often their parents will not back the school up if the kids misbehave. In our school there has to be parental approval before you can give an after school detention. The kids see the 'divide' between school and home and milk it for all it is worth. The majority of the 'real' troublemakers in the school where I work come from the sort of families who will rush into school, F'ing and Blinding that their child is being picked on, and that they will not let them be diciplined. Most normal kids will be naughty on occasion, but will take the punishment and get on with life and learn from the experience.

For example. A kid was trying to punch another child in the lesson. The teacher put himself between the bully and victim. Bully stands up and head butts the teacher. Child put on report. Child goes home, tells Dad he was asaulted by the teacher. Dad comes into school in a rage, and demands that the police are brought in. Says that his son never lies (which of us could honestly say that?) Rest of class back the teacher. Father backs down, no appology is made by Dad or boy. Boy is suspended for 3 days. What does he learn from this? His dad will always back him against the school, whatever the situation, the school is relativly powerless. Do you think his behavior has improved any?

marialouisa, I completely agree with your point - if the school was going to make getting golden time each week a yardstick over who could come on the school trip, this should have been done over a set period BEFORE payment was due from the parents. Then we wouldn't be held to ransom. If a child failed to make the goldentime target, than at least no one would have been out of pocket.

But I'm still not entirely happy with this ruling. Points are taken away over what seem to be small things as well as big ones (my son got a bad point for putting one piece of sweetcorn on a neighbour's chair in the dinnerhall). Children only need to get 8 bad points a week and they miss their golden time. Yet I do agree that children need to meet some standard of behaviour in school if they are to go on a trip for a week. I just think the standard is too strict - the school my son goes to is strict anyway. My son has gone to two other state primaries and his current set of classmates are angels compared to some of the children he has shared classrooms with.

I for one would be very happy to help pay for extra supervision on the trip. Let's assume an extra adult would cost £250.00. That split between 25 parents is only another £10.00 each. I'd be more than willing to pay that for everyone's peace of mind. I wonder why the school has not gone down this route? If I had been asked to cough up even £20.00 or £30.00 because the school felt this class needed more adult support, I might have grumbled a bit, but not a lot. I can only assume the venue could not accommodate more adults with our party. Or no other members of staff could be spared to come along, or the teachers (possibly?) did not want non-staff volunteer 'outsiders' on the trip.

marialouisa, I completely agree with your point - if the school was going to make getting golden time each week a yardstick over who could come on the school trip, this should have been done over a set period BEFORE payment was due from the parents. Then we wouldn't be held to ransom. If a child failed to make the goldentime target, than at least no one would have been out of pocket.

But I'm still not entirely happy with this ruling. Points are taken away over what seem to be small things as well as big ones (my son got a bad point for putting one piece of sweetcorn on a neighbour's chair in the dinnerhall). Children only need to get 8 bad points a week and they miss their golden time. Yet I do agree that children need to meet some standard of behaviour in school if they are to go on a trip for a week. I just think the standard is too strict - the school my son goes to is strict anyway. My son has gone to two other state primaries and his current set of classmates are angels compared to some of the children he has shared classrooms with.

I for one would be very happy to help pay for extra supervision on the trip. Let's assume an extra adult would cost £250.00. That split between 25 parents is only another £10.00 each. I'd be more than willing to pay that for everyone's peace of mind. I wonder why the school has not gone down this route? If I had been asked to cough up even £20.00 or £30.00 because the school felt this class needed more adult support, I might have grumbled a bit, but not a lot. I can only assume the venue could not accommodate more adults with our party. Or no other members of staff could be spared to come along, or the teachers (possibly?) did not want non-staff volunteer 'outsiders' on the trip.

I agree that it is very unfair on all concerned, the children, their parents and the teachers (who may have a dilemma on whether to take away golden time or not!). The worse part is that the rules seem to be made after the parents have agreed to send their child on the trip - very unfair.

Sorry to be so nosey, Flyingmachine, but why did you change your name for this?

marialouisa, I completely agree with your point - if getting golden time each week is a yardstick, this should have been done over a set period BEFORE payment was due from the parents. Then we wouldn't be held to ransom. If a child failed to make the goldentime target, than at least no one would have been out of pocket. As it stands, I think it is very cheeky of the school to play with parents money like this, isn't it custardo? And no, we had no warning, jasper. This came out of the blue.

I'm not happy with this goldentime ruling/missing school trip equation anyway. Points are taken away over small things as well as big ones (my son got a bad point for putting one piece of sweetcorn on a neighbour's chair in the dinner hall). Children only need to get 8 bad points a week and they miss their golden time. Yet I do agree that children need to meet some standard of behaviour in school if they are to go on a trip for a week. I just think the standard is too strict - the school my son goes to is a strict one and usually I have few problems with it. But on this occasion I have - and my son is not in the line of fire. I just feel, looking at the situation, that it is unfair. My son has gone to two other state primaries and his current set of classmates are angels compared to some of the children he has shared classrooms with.

I for one would be very happy to help pay for extra supervision on the trip. Let's assume an extra adult would cost £250.00. That split between 25 parents is only another £10.00 each. I'd be more than willing to pay that for everyone's peace of mind. I wonder why the school has not gone down this route? If I had been asked to cough up even £20.00 or £30.00 because the school felt this class needed more adult support, I might have grumbled a bit, but not a lot. I can only assume the venue could not accommodate more adults with our party. Or no other members of staff could be spared to come along, or the teachers (possibly?) did not want non-staff volunteer 'outsiders' on the trip.

sis, I changed my name because I don't want to be recognised on here if other parents at the school are mumsnetters as this problem is quite a specific one.

Would it realy be that easy to get another adult to go for a week long trip? I would have thought that most parents will either be going out to work (with limited holiday time) or would be stay a home parents with other children to look after. I'm assuming that they would have to stay 24/7? That is a big commitment.

eek don't know why I triple posted.

hmb, to pick up on your last message. Your school sounds like my son's old school. Probably yours is tougher though because the children are older.

As our current head keeps reminding us, my son's present school is 'very special' because the parents are so committed and supportive. Well, us 'special' parents haven't helped solve this school's school trip discipline problem

hmb, I couldn't make that commitment, but I know parents in my son's year who have one child or older children and do not work. So possibly one of them might, if asked. And several parents are regular classroom helpers so have an active interest in the school. Parents do seem to find time to go on cub and brownie camps (sorry to bring in that analogy). I know it's a lot to ask, but one mother and daughter actually visited the venue with in the Lake District a month ago to check it out, so I think parents are keen to make the trip work.

I think that they should have made the criteria for going on the trip clear before any booking were made. That way parents and children could have discussed the matter, parents could have decided if they wanted to 'risk' it, and the kids would understand that if they misbehaved not only would they not go, mut Mum and Dad would be out of pocket. When I was training I spent a week in primary and they had just returned from an adventure weekend. About a third of the kids didn't go, for a range of reasons, bad behaviour being one of them. Having worked for the kids for just one day I could see that there were some that would have been a real H & S risk to take away. Drawing the line is so hard, and if the teachers make a mistake either way they get clobbered. I don't think that I would ever take kids on an overnight trip, and day trips are also risky.

Flyingmachine, thanks for the explanation - I am so very nosey and a bit dense for not working out the reason myself!

tamum, yes, I wonder if this so called blanket exlusion policy is really targeted at certain pupils. It's possible. My son might even be one of them.

The school strikes me as fair and caring - I certainly have no complaints over their treatment of my son.

However, if children in my son's class are misbehave due to having special problems (ADHD for instance) and the teachers recognise about this - this exclusion measure seems inappropriate. It's a very public way of disgracing these children. I don't know exactly what I'd suggest as an alternative, but I'm sure someone else here can come up with a better answer.

tamum, yes, I wonder if this so called blanket exlusion policy is really targeted at certain pupils. It's possible. My son might even be one of them.

The school strikes me as fair and caring - I certainly have no complaints over their treatment of my son.

However, if children in my son's class are misbehave due to having special problems (ADHD for instance) and the teachers recognise about this - this exclusion measure seems inappropriate. It's a very public way of disgracing these children. I don't know exactly what I'd suggest as an alternative, but I'm sure someone else here can come up with a better answer.

tamum, yes, I wonder if this so called blanket exlusion policy is really targeted at certain pupils. It's possible. My son might even be one of them.

The school strikes me as fair and caring - I certainly have no complaints over their treatment of my son.

However, if children in my son's class are misbehave due to having special problems (ADHD for instance) and the teachers recognise about this - this exclusion measure seems inappropriate. It's a very public way of disgracing these children. I don't know exactly what I'd suggest as an alternative, but I'm sure someone else here can come up with a better answer.

Hiya! This sounds really odd to me ... I've just read the whole thread, and can't really understand what is going on, it just doesn't seem to add up to me.

Is it possible they are very worried about the H&S risks of taking 'child x' away? But if so, why don't they just broach the subject directly with that child. I would have thought with the current climates of risk-assessments and so on, if they are seriously worried about the behaviour of a few individuals then they simply should not be taking them.

If it's all a ploy to encourage and motivate the kids to good behaviour, then why involve the parents and make it sound like a genuine possibility?

PS Thanks for your explanation to sis - I couldn't work out why you'd changed your name either!

tamum, yes, I wonder if this so called blanket exlusion policy is really targeted at certain pupils. It's possible. My son might even be one of them.

The school strikes me as fair and caring - I certainly have no complaints over their treatment of my son.

However, if children in my son's class are misbehave due to having special problems (ADHD for instance) and the teachers recognise about this - this exclusion measure seems inappropriate. It's a very public way of disgracing these children. I don't know exactly what I'd suggest as an alternative, but I'm sure someone else here can come up with a better answer.

my computer is playing up - will come back later!

Suew, you may be right, and I hope that he did learn something (without a beating , I've met a few parents like that and take great care that the kids don't get dropped in hot water ). Though I must say that his behaviour hasn't improved in school over the last month since the incident happened. His last 'incident' involved him lying to support a friend who was in trouble with the Headmaster. What did the boy alledge? that the head had head butted his mate! No imagination some kids

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Actually your suggestion robin had also crossed my mind. If the teachers are concerned about a few certain pupils, couldn't they have considered talking to the child's parents before booking to see if they could accompany their child?

I think most parents are ok-ish about the trip, and if it had been cancelled would have felt annoyed, since it is an accepted part of the timetable for Year 5. However, I don't think parents are over the moon about the whole thing -it is a big expense and some are apprehensive about the safety measures. Like you I am wondering if the school is so concerned about the trip, to the point of excluding possibly several pupils, why not cancel it for this class and do something else instead? They could have given the children extra day trips throughout the year for instance, if that posed less of a health and safety risk - and I imagine it's easier to get parents to help on day trips.

Roisin, hello! I wish it was just a ploy to encourage good behavior. The next few weeks will reveal the truth. Things have moved on a bit since I last posted. One boy, with just one bad mark between him and his second week of missed golden time, did not turn up for school today. Whatever the reason, he can't get a bad mark and miss golden time this week (marks are counted from friday of the preceeding week to the following Thursday) so he's ok. My son tells me another boy is probably going to miss his golden time for the second time tomorrow. If so, he's over the limit, so what will happen then? My son will get his golden time this week, but not by a huge margin.

hmb, yes, I agree. Of course the teachers should have made the criteria clear before money was paid. I can only only assume that they did a late risk assessment, got worried and felt they had to impose this ruling late in the day.

On a positive note kids from our school go up to the Lake District for residentials in yrs 4,5 and 6 and have a FANTASTIC time ... Having said that it's only 20 miles up the road, so it's not so expensive for us.