Just why are we so bad at languages in the UK?

[Tournament]

Ds2 in in y5 and has done Spanish on and off for nearly 3 years. He can count to 10, say hello and goodbye and sing a few songs. DS1 ys yr7 he did the same at Primary, but is now learning French and German.

We were on an activity holiday at Easter and met a really lovely German family. After dinner, our DCs ran back to the accommodation for the TV by the time we caught them up, they were playing Scrabble, with the German family, in English!

Their boys were 8 & 10 and both could communicate well in English at the start of the week. By the end of the week, I'd say they were both fluent.

I don't think my boys would even have tried hello/goodbye willingly.

There are multiple reasons:

1. The default language of the business world is English. Therefore in every country where English is not the primary language there is an acceptance that English will be very VERY useful to you in later life. The same is not true for us. We don't accept that learning for example German will have the same degree of usefulness.

2. Because the default language is English, other countries are bombarded by it. Music, films, TV & Internet. Much is dominated by American influence. So kids learn English songs, watch english movies with subtitles, surf websites and get a lot of English results. The point here is that they are exposed to it a lot more than we are exposed to their languages.

3. Attitudes. We're a bit lazy. We have the common language, everyone speaks pigeon English so we think sod it.

4. Our geography means we don't get a lot of exposure to another language. Take for example my fiancee who grew up in Eastern Europe. She of course knows her native language but also Russian because of the old USSR influence. So now she's effectively tri-lingual. English people are usually impressed by this but it's accepted as normal in her home country. You are expected to be at least bi-lingual.

Personally I don't blame schools. They can only do so much. The rest of society isn't valuing learning French/German/Spanish so it's no surprise really that our kids are failing to learn it.

Absolutely true that latin/french root languages seem to be valued more than Eastern European/Asian languages. My child is French-English bilingual and we are often complimented in public by people I am very sure wouldn't consider it to be so 'wonderful' to be English-Punjabi bilingual for example; the latter is often seen as a problem rather than a valuable skill!

A big difference between the UK and much of Europe (and increasingly Asia and East Asia) is that in the UK language skills are for linguists, whereas elsewhere all the scientists and engineers must be fluent in English (and other languages too), and language training continues up to university level, alongside the science. It is incredibly had to find British scientists and engineers who also speak a European foreign language fluently, I know because I've tried.

In the UK it is almost impossible to get language training whilst doing a degree in a different discipline, unless you enroll in costly nightschools etc, and which you might not have time to do alongside a typical 9-6 science course.

I am a languages teacher (don't shoot me down in flames) and I have found this thread fascinating.
I think there are many reasons we are "bad" at language learning in this country, most of which have already been covered here.
I do think that we have an uphill struggle

• not enough curriculum time,
• not starting early enough,
• primary provision being non-compulsory,
• primary languages teaching carried out by a teacher who used to go on holiday to e.g. Brittany,
• parents (sorry) who say at parents' evening in front of their DCs "I can't see the point in learning a language",
• MFL being perceived as much harder than other subjects (by students and before you disagree because your DC finds it easy, I say that as someone who has discussed the issue with a wide range of students over 20 years of teaching)
• English = universal language, very widely spoken in our neighbouring EU countries
• the National Curriculum dictating WHAT and HOW MFL is taught
• government unable to decide if MFL learning is important or not and if so, unwilling to actually support it in schools
• also, there is, I think a very British unwillingness to shed ones inhibitions and TRY. I have witnessed language lessons in Germany where EVERY child appears to be completely comfortable with the idea of speaking English in front of their classmates. Here, so many children are extremely uncomfortable about doing so. And wanting to do well?Being seen as keen and enthusiatic? It's social death.

With regard to the question of which languages should be learnt / taught; this is in itself one of the problems - some students take to French beautifully, others hate it and understand the rules of German much more easily, some would like to learn Mandarin e.g. but who is going to teach it?

Is MFL important?
In my view, no more or less so than any other subject.

We can't ALL learn the same shit.

thesecretmusicteacher 'I do suspect that we have far too many French and German teachers..... and very few teachers of the languages spoken by lots of children in the school itself.'

We don't actually have enough MFL teachers generally since they were taken off the national curriculum. And as for Slavonic/Asian languages - no room for them now that Gove has decided which are the only official languages for KS2: French, German, Italian, Mandarin, Spanish, Latin or Ancient Greek. That will probably carry over to secondary school then.

Not even Arabic, Portuguese or Russian which might be community languages in some areas, and spoken widely in countries with important trade and cultural links.

jenai - YY, we need the coping strategies.

Yes, it has been the done thing in the UK to have French as your GCSE plus perhaps German and/or Latin (with Spanish as the second one as it is perceived as a soft option easier than German and Latin). A sliding scale of people's views of which languages count and it will be based on 50 years of what the universities required for entrance and our cultural heritage in the UK. Thus is the best employers expect to see a language like French on your GCSE list then best to make sure your children have it and if most of the best selective schools will be making the children all do French then you will not really go too wrong if you follow what those best schools are doing.

CILT/CfBT did their annual survey of language trends in March. Some interesting but worrying points:

• 23% of primary schools have no staff with foreign language competence beyond GCSE level
• most primaries are offering French or a lesser extent Spanish.
• there's been an overall decline in the independent sector as well as state schools although more take-up in sixth form

I had a quick look at independent schools, Xenia. Some have a very low take-up of languages for GCSE. St Paul's Girls/City of London Girls put fewer girls in for language GCSEs last year than state comprehensives Fulham Cross or Coombe Girls. Kingston Grammar School has more pupils doing PE GCSE than languages.

muminlondon is that just a number or the does it show the proportion of the cohort? We had no choice but to do a GCSE modern language, and it's the same for the vast majority of independent school pupils I know.

Although our school did have some odd rules... I wasn't allowed to do separate sciences, the two classical languages and one modern language as it wasn't broad enough. I did separate sciences, one classical language and two modern and that was apparently fine

Sorry, that sounds a bit abrupt! I don't mean I don't believe you, I just wonder whether it's a smaller year group size, but actually a higher proportion take the language IYSWIM.

Rowlers: also, there is, I think a very British unwillingness to shed ones inhibitions and TRY. I have witnessed language lessons in Germany where EVERY child appears to be completely comfortable with the idea of speaking English in front of their classmates. Here, so many children are extremely uncomfortable about doing so. And wanting to do well? Being seen as keen and enthusiatic? It's social death.

I think this is the main point! My dcs go to a non English language school where English is taught as a 2nd language from 3 years old. It is very badly taught and the Engllish teacher has a terrible accent but the kids all copy her enthusiastically and can't wait to come to our house to play to show off their English!

Imagine this scenario the other way around. Would British kids actively seek out the foreign kids in their school in order to practise another language? I think not!

Did you say you were in Spain, cenicienta? That's interesting to hear that the kids locally are so keen on speaking English. It must have become cool in recent years because I have two Spanish friends who grew up in bilingual households due to having an English-speaking parent (one in Seville and one in Madrid) and both said they were made fun of at school for speaking English and for pronouncing English loan-words correctly.

That really stuck in my mind because it was the way people at our school treated kids who were bilingual e.g. in French and English. There was a little envy but also this idea that they were being pretentious in using French loan-words correctly or using French slang sometimes. I found it interesting that Spanish kids had the same attitude to kids in English-speaking countries compared to e.g. Germans who, in my experience, value bilingualism and liked to learn how to pronounce foreign words.

Interesting to hear things are maybe changing...!

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams that's percentage entered - e.g. 90% of the year entered for languages at Fulham Cross, 81% of St Paul's Girls entered, 29% entered at Kingston Grammar. Take-up at independent schools is still probably better overall, especially in sixth form, but my point is that it has been in decline there too.

DD is in year 8 and in the top set for French. I was good at languages at school and am horrified at the way she is being taught. I did O levels and we were taught far more rigorous grammar rules and how to conjugate verbs in the first year at high school.

DD tells me of the appalling way some of the other pupils in her class pronounce words as if they aren't even trying. For example avez - she says half the class pronounce it as aviss despite being corrected countless times by the teacher. It is as if they don't/can't/won't listen.

Even DD thinks that learning French is pointless. Unless we can overcome that hurdle I don't think we will ever be able to produce a nation of bilingual speakers.

My dc are bilingual due to their education. They are at Gaelic school, and all teaching (apart from English), is in Gaelic.

It's not anything like a major language, but they have it and the speed with which dd1 has picked up French is astonishing.

Languages need to be taught younger, and the total immersion method is fantastic.

Just checked, 78% entered for language GCSE at Eton in 2012, although 100% at Westminster. Does that explain the stances on Europe of our prime minister and deputy respectively?!

Does that explain the stances on Europe of our prime minister and deputy respectively?!

More to do with Clegg's personal circumstances I think. A Dutch mother, a Spanish wife, descendent of someone of Russian and German origin.

... And why Nick Clegg prefers to send Antonio to London Oratory (97% entered for languages) than among the lazy bankers at Eton! ...

cory Is what you say about Swedes being expected to learn English and at least one other foreign language true for all levels of Swedish society? My (German) nephew is learning Spanish in addition to English at Gymnasium (grammar school equivalent) and is quite confident at communicating in both languages. I would imagine though that the expectations for children at a Realschule (where kids go when they are deemed not academic enough for Gymnasium) are more modest in terms of learning a second foreign language but that the importance of learning English is still stressed. I don't know anything about how the Swedish school system is structured though. Is it similar to in Germany?

I teach English to 4-6 year olds in German kindergartens. Most of their parents learned English in the GDR from teachers who barely spoke the language, a lot didn't go to Gymasium and I often hear comments like "my dc keeps teaching me things they've learned in your lessons". Still, I would bet that when their children come home after a couple of lessons with me (40 min once a week) saying "my name is Max, what's your name?", that the parents respond with "oh, my name is Heike. Wow, are your English lessons fun?" How many British parents would respond to "je m'appelle Tom. Comment tu t'appelles?" with "oh, I was always rubbish at French," or "I've never needed French"?

And I agree with secretmusicteacher that for most people, "I've never needed French" is true. I did A level French, but I can't remember the last time I needed to speak it to someone. If I hadn't moved to Germany then I could probably say the same thing about Gerrman. Otoh, I have a friend here in small-town Germany who is an estate agent, doesn't speak good English, but regularly needs to use it because he has the occasional immigrant client who hasn't learnt German yet, or because he has bought a guitar manual which has a long introduction written in English, etc.

Well, as a result of German AS-level, I've earned £12.30 (which I declared to JSA by the way). I haven't earned anything from A-level Biology or Maths, either directly, or indirectly!

"we simply don't learn our own language properly, which makes it very very hard to learn a new one"

I know you said you teach languages but have to say I disagree with this (as someone who is fluent in three languages).

English and French are similar enough (re sentence structure & vocabulary) that properly knowing the grammar of one could help understand the other but this is not necessary (or even desirable) when learning a language that is based on a completely different logic.

Imho and ime, it is best to learn a new language like a baby, without translating or making comparisons between languages.

"Imho and ime, it is best to learn a new language like a baby, without translating or making comparisons between languages."

Except that this is not how languages interact with one another in the brain.

I wasn't talking about languages interacting in the brain, but the person learning a new one consciously comparing it with and translating it to his native language.

How exactly do you feel that languages "interact" with each other in the brain?

My baby niece is currently very consciously comparing her two languages. But that might I guess be because she's not in a bilingual society, but a mostly monolingual one with a mum who speaks something else.

That can't be very unusual, though.