Just why are we so bad at languages in the UK?

[Tournament]

Ds2 in in y5 and has done Spanish on and off for nearly 3 years. He can count to 10, say hello and goodbye and sing a few songs. DS1 ys yr7 he did the same at Primary, but is now learning French and German.

We were on an activity holiday at Easter and met a really lovely German family. After dinner, our DCs ran back to the accommodation for the TV by the time we caught them up, they were playing Scrabble, with the German family, in English!

Their boys were 8 & 10 and both could communicate well in English at the start of the week. By the end of the week, I'd say they were both fluent.

I don't think my boys would even have tried hello/goodbye willingly.

[thesecretmusicteacher]

Xenia, I think that there is plenty of memorising to be done in biology, chemistry and physics. Not to mention at medical school.

Learning languages isn't that hard. Otherwise all the not particularly bright Czechs I know wouldn't do it so well. It's all about the learning having a function in real life rather than being a cultural pursuit.

[thesecretmusicteacher]

lljkk - possibly, but the Slavonic countries have a rather more depressing reputation for xenophobia than we do - it doesn't stop them speaking English.

In music education we have kind of "got over" the fact that life goes on whether or not you master standard notation...... that a lucky few might use it for a short-lived orchestral career but mostly it's just to access pleasure and fulfilment. Something you fund with your day-job.

[throckenholt]

We are bad at languages because English is our native language. We don't get any real exposure to other languages. And we teach it piecemeal - we don't to much in the way of immersion. I was talking about this with a German friend the other day - they teach English from the start by only talking English in the class during the English lesson - the children very quickly pick up the vocabulary.

Compared with my DS who supposedly did French for two years (yr 3&4) at primary but at the end of that could barely count to ten and not much else.

The Dutch are renowned for being good at foreign languages - mostly because they import a lot of TV but it isn't dubbed because it is too costly. So they get exposed to lots of languages.

I regret that I am not better at languages - and am trying to instil the love of language in my kids.

[Bonsoir]

You have to really want to learn a language to become fluent. I was always excited by languages. Luckily for me when I was a child lots of people in my family spoke several languages, and not just French, which was a given - Russian, Arabic and of course Spanish and German. Others have gone on to learn Chinese. And then I moved to a country as a teenager where I was expected to learn lots of MFL - the opportunity was easy to seize.

I'm not sure how easy it is to enthuse children who are surrounded by people who only speak English.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

My DH's nephews and nieces who live in France but close to the border with Germany speak French and German because they are exposed to both languages on a daily basis. You can catch a local bus from France to Germany.

[elQuintoConyo]

useless in adulthood for 99% of learners is ridiculous, quite frankly.

I'm a tefl teacher abroad and children here are exposed from a much earlier age at school, not necessarily as an 'extra' class that costs money. It's seen as highly beneficial to speak another language for future work.

I find the Brits I meet, apart from the ones who have made this their home, can't speak Spanish for shit and don't want to, poking fun at it instead.

Shame.

[Startail]

For me the problem is simple and the solution very very difficult.

As a parent I can help my DDs with everything they do at school except MFL.

Languages have been so badly taught in Britain for so long that we need to educate the parents as well as the DCs to stand a realistic chance of improvement.

[thesecretmusicteacher]

elQuintoConyo.

"useless in adulthood for 99% of native english speaker learners" would perhaps be a better way of putting it.

do you see?

[Primrose123]

I thin it is a hard skill which is why English children don't want to do it. They want to do the easy GCSEs.

I don't think that's true Xenia, maybe some English (or British) children are like that, but many of the teenagers that I know want to study the traditional subjects like sciences and languages, because they are ambitious. My elder DD is doing GCSEs at the moment, and apart from maths and English, she is doing three sciences, three languages and art. (She's not English though, she's Welsh!)

I have to say I never found languages too difficult. I studied MFL to degree level. You do have to learn lists of vocabulary, but that's not too bad, the more you learn, the easier it gets, as you can see patterns in the words and meanings.

I found languages easier than many other subjects, because I didn't have to learn long chunks of text to reproduce in an exam. When you learn a language, you learn in small chunks, vocabulary, grammar etc. and then apply it together when you do an exam. I found that much easier than trying to learn pages of history or geography!

[thesecretmusicteacher]

again, asked yourselves, is the entire population of the Czech Republic so much clever than us? Is that the reason why 95% of them speak English and none of us speak Czech? Is it that their entire school system is so much better?

No, it is not. The reason is that for them, learning English has a function and is part of everyday life. Learning Czech, for us, is not. I did manage to make it so for two years. It was very hard work - not learning the language - but rather cultivating relationships with people who were both educated enough to be interesting and simultaneously willing to do me the big favour of not speaking English.

[thesecretmusicteacher]

sorry, still musing...

I think that -

• if you come from a non-English-speaking country, learning at least English and also your neighbouring countres' languages is as basic a skill as learning to use Microsoft Office. You don't have to be particularly clever, you just get on with it.
  
  
• if, however, you come from an English-speaking country, learning a MFL is effectively an arts subject like drama or music. And this is why we learn the pretty languages with lots of famous literature rather than the ones of our own immigrant population.
  
  *if you really want your child to learn a foreign language, that's a valid thing to do, just as music lessons are valid, but you need to leave them abroad for the summer surrounded by children of the native land playing football/guitar with them.

[Bonsoir]

Learning lists of vocabulary is a pointless, redundant exercise as the words don't end up in the bit of your brain from where words are retrieved when you speak or write.

[Helpyourself]

Chdten in other countries aren't good at languages- they're good at learning English. Big difference. Where there's a reason to learn and an opportunity to practise children in the uk are just as good- viz mother tongue bilingualism and welsh medium schools.

[thesecretmusicteacher]

Bonsoir, yes, I found that out the hard way.....

Helpyourself, great point.

Ironically, having a bit of academic language-study does help you be a better TEFL-teacher. I used to stop them pronouncing v as w by writing down lots of v- words in czech then slipping in a sneaky English v-word.

Hardly a reason to devote an A-level to it though is it?

[Portofino]

I like the Michel Thomas CDs because he builds up the language bit by bit. With him and a dictionary you are set to have a conversation.

[Erebus]

Well, imho, the reason we're 'bad' at learning MFLs is simply that we don't need to.

All those crying 'shame' etc- but the reality is, you'll rarely meet, face to face, a person in your job or day to day association who cannot speak English better then you can speak their language so, really, why bother? Yes, there are those who loved learning French, then German, then Latin, then Spanish etc etc and who would apparently love for their DC to participate in the same joy- but did that mum get the same joy from 'learning' the beautiful language of maths? The symmetry of it? The genuine universality of it? No? Cos, maybe 'maths iz hard'... Well, so is MFL to those not thereby gifted.

I want my DSs to 'pass' their MFL. I am never expecting them to ever have to communicate in it other than in a 'respectful' " I can greet you in your own language" level, or order a beer in it, as they are not naturally gifted linguists (like the ability to 'pick up' 5 different MFLs in quick succession implies...). Within moments, their forrin counterpart will be communicating quite arcane and complex ideas to them in English.

[Kizzit]

But the world is more than just 'England' though isn't it? Is the attitude of expecting people in other countries to speak your language not rude,to say the least? Is that why,when you go abroad you still come across clumps of expats who don't speak a word of the local language. Would they not enjoy being able to converse in the language of the land? Or do they think that it's ok to go round expecting everyone to understand you if you just SPEAK A BIT LOUDER?

[Bonsoir]

If you limit yourself to English, your travels won't be nearly as interesting.

[superfluouscurves]

Agree Kizzit I think it's stems from a certain insularity (I never realised how insular the UK was until I left it!) and a certain ill-founded complacency/arrogance on our part.

Just watch the BBC news every night - you would barely know that other countries in Europe exist!

[thesecretmusicteacher]

Kizzit, I would have agreed with you when I was younger but not now.

When I'm not being asecretmusicteacher I do travel on business. It's almost rude to speak the language nowadays - it's like you are eavesdropping on a private language. And it would be insulting to suggest someone couldn't speak English. It is, in business, for them to make sure someone is present to translate for anyone who struggles with English.

It's the opposite of insularity - English no longer belongs to this island, nor does it belong to the English-speaking countries. It is the language of business.

Remember, when you address a waiter in English- they do not think you are English. They do not even think you are American. So far as they are concerned, you might be from Serbia or Chile - but you are doing the accepted polite thing and, given that you are not fluent in the local language, using the world's lingua franca instead.

[superfluouscurves]

"It's almost rude to speak the language nowadays - it's like you are eavesdropping on a private language."

This is certainly not the case where we work and live - quite the opposite! And we would be at a distinct disadvantage in terms of business/negotiating contracts if we couldn't understand the native languages and only relied on English!

[thesecretmusicteacher]

what do you do and where?

[thesecretmusicteacher]

ah sorry,l have gleaned from your post that you live overseas.

Yes, one would be slightly bonkers to live overseas and not use the local language. That's completely different from making a business trip to a country where you visit then return.

Hmmm, so maybe schools should be trying to develop a general "ear" for those of us who might become expats? in the same way that we train (or ought to train) the child's ear before they start an instrument, and before we know which one?

How then can we justify non native speakers working as MFL teachers in our schools?

[Lisaletta]

As someone who took French A Level years ago, I have found it totally useless apart from a week or so on holiday every now and again. The amount of time and effort involved in getting to a basic level is massive and not justified by any advantage gained. Also it is not clear what language will be useful. There are so many people around who are bilingual in London that there is no premium or job advantage.

Nice thing to do like learning to play tennis or dancing lesson but I can quite understand why state comps don't prioritise this. BTW obviously agree that if you go and live abroad you need to learn the language. Clearly there will be a great incentive to do so in that case.

[muminlondon]

the Slavonic countries have a rather more depressing reputation for xenophobia than we do - it doesn't stop them speaking English

But on the whole they are more pro-EU (or know they have benefited) whereas anti-European sentiment with the rise of UKIP is a barrier to language learning

it is much much harder to learn a massive list of French vocab by heart than waffle on about a History "sources" material which is sitting in front of you

No, completely disagree Xenia - I found it incredibly easy to learn a massive list of French vocab (and even easier if the vocab was grouped thematically) but actually quite hard to write history essays. But the hard bit with languages is actually speaking and witing fluently rather than passively understanding.

I've been on holiday with very intelligent people who refused to open their mouth and order a beer in any foreign language they hadn't studied past A-level in case they made a mistake or sounded foreign. Very perfectionist but you never get very far if you are too self-conscious.

That goes back to the point that znaika made:

the Brits who can speak Russian are massively better at the grammar, accent and style than any other group ... Why is this not universal? public schools? is there a state private school divide in this?

No, I don't think there is a divide by the time you get to A-level. I was looking at Oxford undergraduate admission statistics and there are similar numbers of state school pupils getting accepted on MFL as from independent schools. But as there are fewer applying from either sector it's actually easier to get in than for other subjects. I think that's true of quite a few Russell group universities.