11+ being scrapped

[musu]

At one school in Essex here

Interesting development which follows on from Bucks CC overhauling their 11+ and trying to make it tutor proof (although everyone I know in Bucks is still employing tutors).

Been thinking a bit more - what resources do you think that a school needs for monitoring progress, Bonsoir?

Whatever the arrangement - sets or streams - a secondary school child is seen by many different teachers per week. A whole picture of the child is usually obtained through some kind of 'tutor' system in which a single individual has pastoral / first point of contact care for a group of children.

Monitoring progress of children in sets is as simple as it is for children in streams. Data is collected from each of the teachers involved with teaching each child - whether that collection is into a database of figures, or (if anomalies are thrown up requiring a narrative comment) through written text or conversation. A single individual - a tutor - keeps oversight of the children in their 'tutor group' . OK, they may have to spoeak to a wider variety of teachers if they need a narrative comment on a child outside the normal reporting cycle, but otherwise, thr job of looking at and interrogating the data in relation to the individual is exactly the same.

Why do you think that it is so impossible?

I don't think it is impossible, but I know, from first-hand observation, that it is resource-intensive and that it is extremely difficult to do well.

What kind of resource? The computing resource is trivial. The individual teacher resource is no greater than for streaming, as they simply assess as normal and enter the results of that into some kind of database or reporting system. The tutor resource need is, I agree, slightly higher and more skilled - but not insurmountably so. As I say, DS's school do it well, with a strong 'house'-based tutor group system of pastoral care and academic oversight.

You make me very scared with your databases. That's not the way to assess pupils.

Bonsoir, you mention that private schools in France are not independent. How does that work then. Are they somehow state run?

They are called "sous contrat" (under contract) with the Ministry for Education, which means they have to follow the French NC and the teachers' salaries are paid by the Ministry. Makes the schools cheaper for parents!

No,databases simply store one aspect of the results of assessment.

Assessment, as you will know, is continuous, ongoing, mainly formative but with some summative elements - e.g. assessed tasks, tests etc.

The overall 'numerical' progress of pupils within a set or stream can be stored within a database and analysed.

The 'narrative' assessment is, within any multi-teacher, multi-subject school environment, known by individual subject teachers and shared formally and informally with someone with overall academic and pastoral responsibility for the child.

There is no significant difference between the 'setting' and 'streaming' versions of this, as far as I can see. In both cases, the 'statistical' and 'narrative' versions of the progress of each individual child in each individual subject need to be co-ordinated and interpreted by one individual - the tutor - or a small group of such individuals - e.g. tutor, head of house, head, SENCo etc.

Whether the 'feeds' into that individual / small group are from a subject teacher per stream or per set makes little difference - the fact remains that it comes from multiple sources and has to be co-ordinated. It is not like in primary, where a single class teacher teaches most subjects and aintains a clear overview of all subjects - in secondary it is all about collating many views, however classes are organised.

So, in DS's recent interim report, the tutor and head of house both knew him well enough to identify a single grade and single comment from one teacher in one subject as being 'out of step', and investigated it & corrected it before the report came to me.

Had it turned out to be a correct comment, but out of step with his other subjects, then I know (because I also saw the original version of the report with the action plan in) that there was an action plan for what he had to do to imprve that particular aspect of his performance in that single subject.

Niether his tutor nor his head of house actually teach him (except for form periods) so they were drawing on their overview FROM A WHOLE GROUP OF OTHER TEACHERS to identify a single area where work might be needed. That would be the same in a set or streamed environment.

Why are you scared of databases? They are just 21st century quill pens and notebooks!

Porbably my fault, seeker I had probably failed to differentiate sufficiently between the database (place to store data = a book but with a better index) and the information that it contained. Of course the latter is what really matters - but having a good database does make anaylysing information from many sources a relatively trivial matter compared with sifting through masses of paper!

The "Utopian" Comprehensive School,70% A* TO C 15 Russell Group entrys a year,3 to 4 kids to Oxbridge. If it was any better well it cant be a Comprehensive. The academic kids have to be able to meet less able kids, because in life there are people who arent as fourtunate as them. This is Seekers dream "UTTER NONSENSE" in a lot of fully Comprehensives areas many Comprehensives, dont achieve 40% A TO C possibly in the area potato prints is in.

Eh?

Beatback, I would argue that the solution for that is not to create grammars, but to improve the poor comprehensives. Segregating the children who will get good results while plunging the rest into even worse schools seems a truly bizarre way of trying to improve matters!

(I live, FWIW, in a residual grammar area, and our local comp - actually a secondary modern in all but name because of the grammars - gets results better than those you state. So it is possible - but anyone at the school will tell you that they have worked extraordinarily hard to achieve it)

I think my main concern with all schools being comprehensives, is that the comprehensives with geopgraphically better demographics, if that is the right word, would not push their pupils. I know this happens, I have seen this happen, and teachers have confirmed to me that it happens.
Because, in the words of one teacher, "a comprehensive is not "allowed" to be a much better comprehensive than other comprehensives, else it makes the other comprehensives look bad".

Hmm. I can see that in theory that might happen. Locally, the comprehensive / slight SM that has the best demographics is known to push mercilessly, and obtains better results than the local private schools, whereas the comprehensives in other catchments have less stellar results but equally good value add - so it isn't a 'necessary consequence' of a school being comprehensive IYSWIM?

In fact, it is probably one or two of the residual grammars that do not push their pupils quite as much as they might (or teach them especially brilliantly) because they can rely on amazing headline results due to their highly selected intake.

Schools are now judged on how their low, middle and high achievers perform. A school with lots of high achievers who did not make at least expected progress would not get a good OFSTED report.

I do think there is a lot of urban myth around comprehensive education. Obviously, it's not perfect- far from it- but lots of things people believe about it is just not true.

seeker apologies if I've missed a response but what is your comeback to the figures about the spectacularly improved results from FSMers at grammars as compared to the figures in comps nationwide? Because I know the outcomes for FSMers is close to your heart.

ilike I'm not at all convinced by that, I'm afraid!

I can understand how hard some Schools have to work to get,very ordinary results. what about the girl potato prints talked about in a recent post,because the girl is in a area of lower social economic density, the options of Secondary Education in that area,are incapable of helping that girl reach her potential. In previous posts i have said i know of 2 "MODERNS" that last year got over 70% A ToC "EVEN SEEKER" accepts what i have said,because she has seen the proof. In some areas of northen england, a modern school in a Grammar School area can be signifanctaly better than a comprehensive in a non selective area. The girl that potato prints is talking about,would be better in the "Modern" school in the nearby selective area than in her own areas Comprehensive. Maybe there is a different dynamic between north and south england. Many of the best schools in northen england were Direct Grant Grammar Schools that were forced against everything they stood for to go private. most of these schools would rejoin,the state sector immediatly if they could use "SELECTION". Infact some private schools in the north have already rejoined the state system as acadamies. Instead of saying we cant have that school because it selects, why not get some great schools, back in to the state system.

Yellowtip- sorry, I hadn't responded to that point. I'm not sure. Neither are the people who collect the data. If you want my opinion I think that the children on FSM who actually get to a grammar school are likely to be pretty exceptional characters, and so are likely to do very well. I suppose it's also very important to remember is that there are so few FSM children in grammar schools that it is difficult to do serious statistical analysis. In my dd's school, for example, there are an average of 4 per year.

I wonder too, and I suspect that this will not go down well, that FSM at a grammar school may not necessarily be the indicator of deprivation that it is in a different school. There are two that I know of in my dd's friendship circle, for example. One is the child of an artist- poor, but not by any means disadvantaged in other ways- the other the child of a single parent who is currently retraining. Please don't now come in with a torrent of "the wrong sort of FSM to suit my ideas"- I just thought it was interesting.

And yes, I can see how a child from a disadvantaged background could flourish in a grammar school- to quote somebody or other, "parched roots quenched". But if there a only 4 a year............

"Infact some private schools in the north have already rejoined the state system as acadamies"

Have they? How are they getting on?

I have heard of some that are gaming the system by thinking about becoming free schools.....

Seeker. three ex private schools Belvedere school liverpool, Birkenhead High School/ now academy Willam hulme in manchester. Belevedere Girls school got 93% A TO C Last year. i believe Red maids in bristol is becoming an academy as well. Im sure they are other schools who are thinking about it. Perhaps a little encouragement might work. ALLOWING THEM FREEDOM TO SELECT

Why do private schools convert to Academies? I presume the only reason is that they are losing pupils or money or both? Or am I missing something?

TheOriginalSteamingNit. You dont have to be convinced by it.
But it is the truth.
It works in reverse for one of the comprenhesives in one direction. It is in a recognised deprived area,and because it is geographically next to the other one, it has been striving, and its results have improved a lot of recent years.

Now, I dont know whether that is all a result of county policy.It may be.
But the Head in school one has got very complacent.[no private schools for mile and miles in these 2 cases]. Why wouldnt he?