11+ being scrapped

[musu]

At one school in Essex here

Interesting development which follows on from Bucks CC overhauling their 11+ and trying to make it tutor proof (although everyone I know in Bucks is still employing tutors).

My feelings are not even remotely hurt. And I do want to understand. So please try again. Unless you are just taking the piss. Which would be deeply depressing and boring.

No, seeker, it is far too boring to explain it all to you again when you only need scroll down and read it (are you too lazy for that, as well?). And of course your feelings are hurt - this is what you go on about all the time, the hurt feelings of those who don't pass the 11+ and get a GS place and you think those hurt feelings should be prevented by going fully comprehensive and abolishing any form of selective education.

My feelings aren't hurt. I didn't do the 11+!

So you are just taking the piss. How very unpleasant of you.

I am stating truths you find deeply unpalatable and that you are trying not to hear (or read), however clearly they are laid out before you.

Right. Try me with one of those unpalatable truths. I have just scrolled throughout the thread and I cannot find an explantation of how this market place works.

Can anyone else help me out here?

I'm not a head, Yellow!

However both as a local teacher and parent, I am unaware of any outreach going on from the superselective. It has thousands upon thousands of applications for 120 places, so perhaps it sees no need.

But you are an experienced primary teacher though? I would be very surprised indeed if there was any superselective in the country not organising outreach. It will be targeted of course. Oxford and Cambridge have thousands and thousands more applications than they need to fill their places. They still do outreach. That point is almost irrelevant teacher. Anyhow, it happens.

No outreach has reached- to coin a phrase- either of the two primary schools I am closely involved with.

SEEKER. You need to "LOOK ON THE GOOD SIDE" you have a DD at a good grammar, your DS doing well at his school, And if a "INVITATION" came along for your DS to join a grammar you would take it. stop being a "STUBBORN PERSON" and except that both your DC"S are on the "RIGHT TRACK" educationally, and that they will both probaly go to University and have good careers, and in 5 years this subject will be not relevant to you. NOT PERSONALLY.

Well it's alive and kicking elsewhere seeker, supported in principle by the Sutton Trust and sometimes financially sponsored by the Sutton Trust.

I was involved in this subject, as I say repeatedly, before I had school age children. And I will be involved in it long after I cease to have school age children. My views are not because of my children's schooling. Obviously, I have anecdotes and experiences which are relevant because of my children. But they are absolutely nothing to do with my views on the subject of selective education. I findnit fascinating that people are always happier to go "ad hominem" rather than argue the facts.

But how are you involved seeker?

You seem so fixed and rigid in your opposition. As you say, you've been repeating yourself on here, ad infinitum for years and years and years. It's just so pointless!

Not one child's life has been helped, has it?

Why not get out there and try some outreach? Get some of those disadvantaged kids in the system!

Bonsoir, I am unaffected, personally, by your views on Kent.

However, I have raised the issues I see in your 'marketplace' model above (I would also point out that if this so-called marketplace had any benefit, it would be producing better results on average than other counties with similar demographics without grammars - which it does not) and I have not yet seen your answer?

In all counties - whatever their secondary education system - the realtively wealthy and realtively well-informed can obtain advantage - through moving house, through buying private education, through employing tutors to fill gaps, through providing extracurricular opportunities that cost money and time. That is not unique to a grammar school county. Where fully grammar counties differ is that they provide another arena in which the relatively wealthy and relatively well-informed can obtain advantage, through purchasing - directly or indirectly - access to selective schools. While that may be an advantage to the few, it is at the cost of disadvantage to the many. It is not, however, a true marketplace, because of the restrictions upon movement of goods and services, inability to expand, and tight regulation and restrictions imposed from outside this so-called 'market'.

Just had a hunt for outreach programmes- found one from Pates in 2009 , aon one offerd by Calday Grange at a cost of £40 per child. There don't seem to be any others- are there?

Word- I honestly think it's best to try not to personalise it. However, I do plenty. And I am active in local politics. Of course no child has been helped by debating on mumsnet - however, I am active in other areas. Does that ease your mind?

Then set one up, seeker!

Contact the Sutton Trust and ask them if they'll help you!

If you spent a tenth of the time on that, than you do on harranging strangers on t'internet about a subject the vast majority don't give a shit about, you could make some real headway!!!!

No seeker it doesn't ease my mind because I suspect you spend all your time banging on about the abolition of GS, rather than trying to help anyone get in them!

seeker don't be absurd. The Pate's project is one sponsored by the Sutton Trust but there are endless initiatives nationwide. The schools don't wear them on their sleeves to get brownie points. You're probably very unlikely to get a flavour from the internet or from individual prospectuses. I'd have thought that the most you'll get is a clear and unequivocal statement that all comers are welcome.

Yellow - for most of the people I talk to, it's not the cost of the transport so much as the length of the journey. I think the cost would be an issue but most people are saying 'that's too far' without even knowing the cost of the bus.

Seeker, not that I agree with Bonsoir, but for the sake of ending this particular little recursion loop - Bonsoir describes Kent as a 'market' because for some kids, with great test scores or genned up parents, or money, or any combination of the above factors, there will be a diverse choice of schools. Private, superselective, true comp, comp with grammar stream, bog standard Kent style grammar school, etc. This is because all those types of school exist somewhere in Kent and if you live in the well connected bits, the bits with decent roads, which go somewhere sensible, or the bits with good trains like Ashstead rather than the bits with no trains, or bad roads, then maybe you can get to the sort of school you want to go to. Or you could move to be close to the sort of school you want to go to. Or your non working parent could drive you there, time and cost no object. Etc. for those with poor test scores, no money or less genned up parents, it's a different story, also as was pointed out above, supply cannot expand to meet demand therefore it cannot be said to be an efficient market. But for some very fortunate kids at the top in every respect, their parents can probably choose the school they want from a wide range.

Pate's works quite hard at outreach and is situated in the middle of an area of deprivation In a generally monied area. I expect it has data about its effectiveness but it must be fighting an uphill battle. People are willi g to bus children from as far as Swindon and Bristol.

The less confident (and many that might be expected to be more careful to find out the truth) are negatively affected by gossip (untrue) of poor pastoral care and warnings about how hard the work will be .

I suppose you can say that about any market. That only a certain group have proper access within it, or are properly able to benefit.

A fettered market, is still a market.

Wheras in some parts of the country there really is no market to speak of. No GS (superselective or otherwise), not privates close enough to make sense. As they say in they say in Louisiana, you git what you git.

In comparisson, Kent offers a fair bit of choice, it seems.

Russians - Kent isn't Devon! The roads are excellent and the trains are great! It is easy to get around and DC have been going to GS from villages for decades now (I did so myself). GS are full of ambitious DC these days and have more ambition than working in a local shop (which is where many GS girls wound up a generation ago).

I did say I only did a quick google! And I would be delighted to know that there are loads more outreach programmes that aren't easily accessible on the Internet. I do know for a fact though that the two schools I am involved with have not been invited to take part, or had any information about them.

Fear not, word, I'm not a single issue politician. There's all those towns that need twinning with Soweto townships to be sorted out. Christmas to be banned. And the bilingual road signs to commission........

The schools don't wear them on their sleeves to get brownie points. You're probably very unlikely to get a flavour from the internet or from individual prospectuses. I'd have thought that the most you'll get is a clear and unequivocal statement that all comers are welcome.

Perhaps this is me being dim now, but surely the purpose of outreach is to reach - to get as much publicity as possible. If the educated and involved can't find it, what hope is there for anyone else?