11+ being scrapped

[musu]

At one school in Essex here

Interesting development which follows on from Bucks CC overhauling their 11+ and trying to make it tutor proof (although everyone I know in Bucks is still employing tutors).

Of course school choice implies the school as well as the family having a say in the decision whether or not to admit a child.

And your stubborn and inflexible position has prevented you from analyzing and understanding the system within which you live.

Bonsoir- I really genuinely don't understand. Please will you tell me what you mean?

Because I genuinely think I do understand the system. What am I getting wrong?

The fact that the market for schools doesn't function in a consumerist manner like a supermarket doesn't mean it isn't a marketplace.

Maybe the children should have to go in and give a 2 minute talk on something that is covered in the year 6 curriculum but not be told in advance which topic they will have to talk about, or they could be asked to join a debate about something topical in the news that is suitable for children.

So how does it function?

Re-read and actually think about what I have written about Kent schools. Kent is an extraordinarily thriving market place where state and private schools compete to offer a broad and differentiated range of educational choices. By definition, there have to be some rather uninspiring schools to mop up the leftovers. Though there are valiant attempts to make such schools appropriate learning environments for those within them (orchestras are not usually a priority) .

Kent is undoubtedly a dangerous place for the off-spring of MC parents with socialist ideals who don't want or cannot be bothered to invest heavily in their DC by either paying for private prep or doing masses outside school (including tutoring for the 11+) while DC are at state primary.

Indeed, the "complacent middle" is not well represented in Kent...

Right, Bonsoir. I have thought. I still don't understand the thriving market place.

Pick a town - a town of your choice. And tell me how the market place works there.

It doesn't work at town level - that isn't how it is organized. I have explained how the system works.

I was at Ashford International station on Friday afternoon. As we drove up, there were boys walking out of the mainline station wearing Judd uniforms ie they attend superselective in Tonbridge and take the train back and forth every morning and evening.

'My selective has a catchment radius of 1.6 miles. The house prices enjoys a 15% premium over the houses outside the catchment. I have no idea what the FSM figures are compared to the neighboring school but given you have to be reasonably well off to afford the houses I don't understand why some people would be surprised if there was in fact few FSM kids at my selective.'

Unless we know which your selective is, we can't really be surprised or unsurprised. But it is quite unusual for a selective school to have such a small catchment. (You are allowed to name schools on mumsnet BTW).

'Elsewhere you have small village GSs where the catchment is wider. There you will probably find a much higher proportion of FSM kids than at my school. Basically, FSM figures don't really prove anything about the 11+'

I know nothing of small village GSs, but the outer London GSs take children from a very wide area and also have very low FSM.

Kent is undoubtedly a dangerous place for the off-spring of MC parents with socialist ideals who don't want or cannot be bothered to invest heavily in their DC by either paying for private prep or doing masses outside school (including tutoring for the 11+) while DC are at state primary.

I think you can still be MC (socialist or otherwise) without having the income to cover school fees. And if every MC parent tutors, tutors then tutors some more to compete in this market, someone still won't have tutored heavily enough and their DC will fail the 11+, which kind of neatly brings us back to OP and the possibility of an unturorable test.

Anyway, isn't bringing private schools into the equation a bit of a cop out. In that respect, surely Kent is no different to any other area which has private schools.

Where I live, small local comp has exceptionally leafy catchment (radius of just about a mile) and there is a price premium for houses nearby. FSM 3.8%.

Superselective, based in a very deprived part of the town but no catchment. Children come from c. 30-40 mile radius, some travelling from even further. FSM 0.8%.

Selective boy's grammar, based in neighbouring town which is not at all 'green and leafy', children travelling from perhaps 15-20 mile radius. FSM 1.2%.

So grammars are FAR more socially selective even than what is almost certainly the most 'selective by postcode' comprehensive within the county.

I must be mind bogglingly stupid then. Does anyone else understand Bonsoir's market place model?

I think it may be stretching the concept of a free market a bit. If you normally want goods and services you work to earn money to pay for them. In Kent, if you want your child to go to GS, you pay for them to go to private prep or you pay with their time in doing masses outside school (including tutoring for the 11+). And if they don't pass then you pay by sending your child to one of the competing private schools. If you don't have the income to come to this market, then your child is a leftover.

This was my attempt at an explanation; It is so muddled that I was going to delete it but thought I would leave it to confirm that you are not mindbogglingly stupid, seeker.

Bonsoir,

I am not stupid (apologies, you will have to take Oxbridge PhD etc on trust as I cannot show my certificates online), and do not recognise your 'marketplace' model of education as having any relationship to reality. I mean, I undertand Cecily's spelling out of what she thinks you mean. I also recognise that it is in no way a helpful model, in particular because such a large proportion of potential consumers are treated as 'leftovers'.

Could you expand? And also include a comparison to the model in a wholly comprehsnive area to explain why you make the point as being specifically relevant for Kent, rather than elsewhere?

It is simply not possible for anyone on a FSM level of income to pay for even one DC to travel 30 miles to a school each day and 30 miles back. That has a profound impact on the social make up of superselective grammars.

Exactly. I have been reflecting on the marketplace ideas put forward by Bonsoir, and it seems to me that there are far too many restrictions in reality for it to function as a market.

e.g.

• Producers cannot expand to meet demand. So if e.g. 1000 more children meet the 'grammar school level' this year than did last year, the grammar schools cannot expand to meet this additional demand - nor shrink if the next cohort is less able.
• Restrictions are placed on the geographical movement of goods and services. A few 'producers' do operate without formal catchment areas (although as Yellowtip says, cost restricts the genuinely free movement of 'consumers') but in general 'consumers' are bound to one or a few 'producers' by geographical proximity.
• 'Consumers' cannot choose from all 'producers', as the 'market' is restricted through external agencies.

etc etc

I agree Yellowtip about the cost of travel being a factor.

wrt Bonsoir's marketplace model in Kent- it is correct in terms of being able to afford private ed and having a choice over which independent to choose. There is a thriving estate agent 'market' with buyers paying a premium to get into the catchment area of those grammars that have them (eg Cranbrook) and I suppose you can buy tutoring to help get your DC into those superselectives that don't have catchment restrictions.

As ever, there are many more choices available to those with money.

I think the cost of travel could be easily solved by free travel permits for those pupils on FSM.

Yellowtip

I disagree with your comment about people on fsm level income to be able to afford transport. Maybe in general yes but you can't say its not possible. We aren't fsm but same income and we could easily afford the travel. Our nearest grammar is about 30 miles away and if i thought any of my dc had been grammar school potential this wouldn't have put us off.