11+ being scrapped

[musu]

At one school in Essex here

Interesting development which follows on from Bucks CC overhauling their 11+ and trying to make it tutor proof (although everyone I know in Bucks is still employing tutors).

AFTERNOON ALL. So even seeker thinks some people require different maybe, even "SELECTIVE EDUCATION" so we are arguring over the percentages that should be in selective education,lets bring in A.C.A.S and we can discuss the % . I think 30% that in the case of "KENT" would probaly be enough to mop up inteligent kids that were not tutored, if to qualify it was say 330 instead of 360/410 in super selectives, would that not even things up a little. I am also aware that tutoring could be worth up to 40 points on non tutored kids, so why could a school not use the pupil premium to tutor bright, underprivileged kids. Another very intresting thing about Grammar Schools in different areas is the vast difference in F.S.M take up, in kent there seems to be a huge difference, but in trafford the Grammar Schools are about 2% where as the secondarys are about 6 to 7% which suggests there is a more even socio economic balance in schools.

I wonder what people thinks happen to the 90% of the DCs who are at comprehensives with no grammar schools at all? Do DCs become dimmer in places that haven 't had a grammar school for 40yrs? Do their parents not have aspirations for their DCs?

I simply don't understand it. All the DCs are in the comprehensive- those at the top are going to the best universities, and as a regular thing and not a one off. Wordfactory talks as if only grammar schools can manage an exceptionally bright child or cope with individuals. When DS1 was in the maths 6th form class he had a year 8 DS working with them- he had been going to the comprehensive for weekly maths lessons from year 5 and got his GCSE in year 7. DS's friend got one of the top A'level marks in the entire country the year he did it. DS got an A and went to a RG university to do a science subject. He wasn't labelled a 'swot' or exceptionally bright- just fairly average in the class.

In what way would it have helped to be under the same roof with only the very bright? DS would have been hampered- the third set in maths would have been his place for his whole school career in a SM but in a comprehensive he did a month in it, five months in set 2 and the rest of his time in set 1. Would the DS who had a maths brain recognised in the junior school even of passed- his English was below average.

If my brother had stayed in the SM who would have known that he would excel in Latin and Greek? He would never have got the opportunity. Subjects are closed to you from the ridiculously young age of 11yrs.

What can be sensible about a system that failed my brother at 11yrs and put him in the gifted and talented range in the grammar school at 13yrs?

The fact that we are still doing in some parts of the country is a disgrace IMO.

exotic if you think a year 8 boy spending large amounts of his school day with 18 year olds is a good idea, then you and I have a very different view of what's appropriate.

He was in the A level class!! That was not large amounts of the day. The rest of the time he was in his normal year group classes. What on earth was he supposed to do for maths? Kick his heels for years while they all caught up? Luckily the school was more enlightened and had an individual programme for him.

I don't quite know what you are supposed to say exotic.

We have to have grammar schools, apparently, to cater for those 13 year olds doing GCSEs, and for those who would be kicking their heels doing work which is too easy for them. However, when the comprehensive arranges for a thirteen year old to do GCSEs or arranges for a maths whizz to be stretched then that's wrong.

exotic I really don't think you're getting this, are you?

If he had been ain a superselective he could have done his accelerated work within his peer group!!!! They would have been at his level!!!!

He wouldn't have been the odd little kid, sitting with the boys who are getting ready to live independently.

volcan it's wrong because DC pre pubescent DC shouldn't be forced to study with 18 year olds. In super selectives there are more than enough kids of their ability of their own age!!!!

OK- as we're in our anecdotage- my ds is the only child in his school to join in September with a level 6. So far, they are providing extension work for him. If it's OK for him to be singled out, when he wouldn't be in a comprehensive, shouldn't it be equally OK for the year 8 GCSE candidate in a comprehensive?

No seeker it's not okay for anyone to be an educational outlier.

It's bloody horrible and absolutely will not result in a happy school life. Fortunately, I have been able to pay for my DS to ensure that he is not stuck in some bloody A level class!

But for those that can't afford it, I will support the provision of super selective education!

More anecdotage. Five out of six pupils at DD4s tiny primary school are predicted L6 next week and four out of five of those didn't get a place at the grammar. Is it fair to assume that L6s can be overrated or at least don't correlate with the sort of thinking skills looked for by grammars?

The point is that my child is not an outlier. In a comprehensive school nobody would have to make any special provision for him. And I am prepared to bet that there plenty like him- and without someone to fight their corner they are stuffed.

Wordfactory- whether you like it or not, your child is an outlier. And I suspect that there won't be a decent sized set of year 8s doing A level in many schools in the country of any sort. There would always have to be special provision made for him. Apart from where he is, obviously. But you can't make education policy to fit the outliers. It's sad, but true.

yellowmy DS only got a level 5 in Maths !!!!

seeker I bet he could go to any number of private and selective state schools in London and slot in perfectly fine!

word is at pains to point out that her DS is just part of the crowd at his particular school. As are my DC at their school. Of course you can frame an education policy to cater for the very bright. Why ever would you not be able to? It's entirely possible and should be done.

You misunderstand me. Of course an education policy must cater for the extremely bright. But the policy can't have their needs as its core.

I don't think that you are getting it either wordfactory. I am not talking about a DC who would have been normal in a grammar school - my friend's DS who got some of the top marks in the country and did maths at Cambridge- this was a boy who was exceptional at any school.

Really? Any number of schools with sets of year 8s doing A level maths?

In all my years of teaching I have never come across a child who went up to a secondary school each week for a sort of master class- as this one did.

exotic there are some DC that are so off the scale that formal education is probably not for them.

There are some schools for gifted DC. Mostly in the US however.

But superselectives can cater for the very bright indeed without having to resort to sticking a 12 year old in an A level class!

DS school sends lots of boys off the Oxbridge to read maths and PPE and economics yadda yadda. I haven't heard that any of them needed to sit with the 18 year olds.

So. The solution? That will make sure that your child and mine both have a peer group?

Superselectives? 10%- with an uncoachable test?

Well I'm sure that some people would argue that any society needs to foster the talents of its brightest thinkers. But even if you don't think they have a particular role, it's perfectly reasonable to shape a policy with provision for their needs as an important constituent part. That's no more or less core than providing vocational education for those with a vocational bent. It's at least as important.

I have a friend with a properly gifted DS. This is how I know that my DS is not a genius.

This child was so far advanced in year two that teachers were already saying they could not cater. He was put up a year. Then two. It was dire.

Eventually she whipped him out until a selective day school agreed to take him (one year early) for free.
They soon realised that all was not well and arranged for him to go to university a few days a week. He also had regular on line tutorials with some profs in the states.

But it hasnot been a happy proccess. Not one to be recommended.

And my friend's advice to me? Do whatever you can to ensure that your DS is normal.

But if travelling is the conditon, you're already narrowing things down to families who can afford that, or cater for it.

Or if, in my city where there are, I think, 8 state comprehensives (will leave private out of the equation for now), you have a SS grammar even just for the top ten %.... then suppose each school has a year 7 intake of 150ish (about right, I think, but could be wrong)... then to form a SS with a year 7 intake of about the same size, I reckon you're taking between 10 and 15 of the brightest 11 year olds from each existing year 7. Which is a good proportion of the existing top sets, and would make a difference to the school and its results.

These schools already serve city and surrounding areas, but if you broadened the radius a bit, you end up with a lot of children travelling a long way.

Well here's what I figure yellow.

All DC must have an education that is appropriate for them.

However, if we're looking for someone who will develop a cure for alzheimers, or harnass the sun's energy efficiently, or write the next Handmaiden's Tale, we are probably looking to the top 10% of intellect.

We let them underachieve at our peril.

I don't understand you at all. This is a perfectly ordinary boy but with exceptional maths ability. His parents were very down to earth and didn't want him treated differently. I don't understand what you expected him to do. He was beyond the level of grammar school pupils and the ones who go through the normal A'level and Cambridge. He was sitting in there with the boy who went to Cambridge and got a first. He was having the right teaching for his ability without his friends thinking him odd.