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Late Grammar School offer: over the moon but stressed/flummoxed

999 replies

PermaShattered · 29/04/2013 19:35

What a 3 days we've had - any insightful comments welcome. In short:

  1. Our daughter was offered 3rd choice (her 11+ score was about 30 down on passmark);
  2. 3rd school is outstanding but we appealed to 2nd choice school as was our preference;
  3. Last Friday took calls from our local Ed admissions authority saying why appealed when have offer from grammar school?
  4. Said we hadn't. She made further calls to other relevant admissions authority and came back and told us we definitely have an offer and it would be in post next day (Saturday just gone);
  5. It duly arrived, and we posted our acceptance same day (they should have got it today) - verbal acceptance of place given by phone on Friday;
  6. On Friday the Authority also withdrew both our place at 3rd choice school and our appeal to 2nd choice school;
  7. Today i take a call from a friend whose daughter got substantially higher score than my DD - and she is 188 on waiting list;
  8. I call our admissions auth to check they received our acceptance (they said still in posttray but will be dealt with this afternoon);
  9. I query whether there could possibly an error and i'm told categorically 'no'. And if there was, we have a written offer, accepted it and they can't take it off our daughter;
10. Finally, my other DS is that grammar school.

I'm perplexed. What could be a possible explanation?

OP posts:
tiggytape · 03/05/2013 12:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoupDragon · 03/05/2013 12:59

Will they know she didn't pass? Some might, but not all and it would have to be someone who knows the child who missed out.

Interesting thought about the girl-in-a-boys-school scenario.

DIddled · 03/05/2013 13:32

I might be wrong but I think the OP DD did pass the exam, but did not score enough due to oversubsription to be offered a place on allocation day or after.If she hadn't passed at all, an appeal would have to take place for even the possibility of a place being allocated.

LaVolcan · 03/05/2013 13:44

What would happen, I wonder, if a girl was accidentally given a place in a boy's school, and the parent decided to insist in her going?

I wondered that, but that would clearly be a mistake. In this case, the OP queried whether a mistake had been made and they assured her that one hadn't. Maybe if they had checked immediately when OP queried it they might have discovered the mistake and been able to withdraw the offer within 24 hours. That would have been annoying but would have avoided this mess.

seeker · 03/05/2013 13:48

"seeker - there are children in virtually every grammar school who haven't passed the 11+
They win at a 'non qualification' appeals and have are given a place despite people still being on the waiting list who did pass and possibly beating them by many points. That's how it works. The appeal process accepts the 11+ isn't the be all and end all when deciding who qualifies and exceptions can be made."

Really? I don't think there are in Kent- at least not in any oversubscribed grammars. It must be different in other areas then. That certainly makes a difference.

wheresthebeach · 03/05/2013 13:52

I don't understand...if you can win at a 'non qualification' appeal, when you haven't passed the 11+, it makes a mockery of the whole testing process doesn't it? Surely then everyone would appeal?

BTW - I think OP should stick to her guns and fight for the place. She knows the school and her daughter so has a good idea if she can cope.

PermaShattered · 03/05/2013 13:57

Update: Withdrawal of offer letter received today (and dated today 3rd May curiously). I've got the appeals process started and had useful chat with the admission person at the school itself.

I've just had an email from Mr Admissions Director who is STILL waiting to hear from the other LEA (the one that made an error). That LA appears to be inept/unresponsive and non-communicative. Not good (but presumably good for our case).

Thanks for all your comments - a few responses:

Tiggy the potential repercussions for my DD grow: it occurred to me that if we can't keep this place for her it could adversely affect her relationship with her sister who's at the school and only 2 years older than her. The prospect of her not going to that school when she had nearly a week of 'legitimate expectation' that should be going is FAR worse than just not getting a place on 1 March.

What's the relationship between the LEA and the school itself? It's seems to be a complicated set up but say, for instance, on appeal the LEA is told it must uphold this place - what is the legal responsibility of the school?

Seeker any child not offered a place at the school is automatically placed on the waiting list.

As for people knowing - we and my DD are in a good position in that she was the only one at her school who took the 11+; and we only know 1 other person who took it and applied to that school (the one I've referred to previously).

Downton having received the offer we considered 3 reasons for it: an error (which we thought unlikely given the stage it was offered) and which we were told it wasn't; her paper was moderated; or places had become available. I do not see that any of those reasons could be an unreasonable explanation for the offer my DD received.

Yes, I'm exhausted (whoever commented on that) - but i'm glad to have these 3 days as i know nothing can happen and we can just gather up our thoughts and have some family time. I'll keep you posted if anything happens this afternoon.

OP posts:
seeker · 03/05/2013 14:00

The way it works down our way is that before the results are announced, the is a panel that head teachers can appeal to if there is a seriously anomalous result, or if there was some reason known to the Head why a child might not have done as well as expected- the panel look at a report from the Head, and at the child's work, and they can decide that they should get a grammar school place. In the school where I was a governor, in 6 years, one child got through. Parents can then appeal- explaining to an independent panel why the school should make an extra place for their child even though they didn't pass. I know two cases in 6 years where this happened. However, where we live, there are grammar places for every child that passes- so there isn't a waiting list of qualified children that an appeal could leapfrog over.

seeker · 03/05/2013 14:02

So you're automatically on the waiting list for a grammar school even if you haven't passed?

Obviously your system is so completely different from ours that I'd better stop saying anything- I'll only confuse things!

PermaShattered · 03/05/2013 14:11

seeker here they don't call is a pass mark - they say 'cut off' score. The cut off point is lower today than it was this time last week. Anyone who scored lower than the cut off score is automatically on the waiting list.

OP posts:
seeker · 03/05/2013 14:47

Ah. All the more reason to make absolutely sure nobody knows. And, sadly, I think, all the more reason for the LEA to fight. If the cut off point is waived for your dd, anyone above her would be in a position to appeal.

God, what a truly ghastly situation.

wheresthebeach · 03/05/2013 15:04

Enjoy the weekend as much as possible; just exhausting and upsetting for you all.

lougle · 03/05/2013 15:43

The LA can fight all they want. They won't win.

Seeker, as I've said (a few times) before, 'anyone below her' would not be in a position to appeal (although any of them could appeal because every parent has that right regardless of how spurious their reasons).

The OP's case would be dealt with by 3.2 of the Appeals Code* (see below) - the panel would have to conclude that although they have the right to withdraw under clause 2.12 of the Schools Admissions Code 2012 (2.12 Withdrawing an offer or a place ? An admission authority must not withdraw an offer unless it has been offered in error, a parent has not responded within a reasonable period of time, or it is established that the offer was obtained through a fraudulent or intentionally misleading application. Where the parent has not responded to the offer, the admission authority must give the parent a further opportunity to respond and explain that the offer may be withdrawn if they do not. Where an offer is withdrawn on the basis of misleading information, the application must be considered afresh, and a right of appeal offered if an offer is refused.), the appeal cases which dealt with that issue previously, deemed 3 days too long to wait before withdrawing. The OP's had over 5 days of legitimate expectation of a place.

The first person on the waiting list could also appeal, stating that if the LA hadn't made the mistake, then they would have been admitted instead of being on the waiting list. Clause 3.2 b) would be shown to be false. They did not apply the admission arrangements correctly. Therefore, that family would win under clause 3.5(a)"a) it finds that the admission arrangements did not comply with admissions law or had not been correctly and impartially applied, and the child would have been offered a place if the arrangements had complied or had been correctly and impartially applied."

The other 180 children could not argue that they would have been offered a place. Therefore they would not win the appeal on that basis, although any of them may be able to convince the panel that there is space for them and it would not prejudice the school to take them. If there were lots of them, then it would come down to who had the best case.

*The Appeals Code 2012 says:

"3.2 The panel must consider the following matters in relation to each child that is the subject of an appeal:
a) whether the admission arrangements (including the area?s co-ordinated admission arrangements) complied with the mandatory requirements of the School Admissions Code and Part 3 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998; and
b) whether the admission arrangements were correctly and impartially applied in the case in question.
3.3 The panel must then decide whether the admission of additional children11 would prejudice the provision of efficient education or the efficient use of resources.
3.4 In all cases, the panel must refer to the local authority and the admission authority (if the appeal is for a school that is its own admission authority) any aspects of the admission arrangements that do not comply with admissions law.
3.5 The panel must uphold the appeal at the first stage where:
a) it finds that the admission arrangements did not comply with admissions law or had not been correctly and impartially applied, and the child would have been offered a place if the arrangements had complied or had been correctly and impartially applied; or
b) it finds that the admission of additional children would not prejudice the provision of efficient education or efficient use of resources.
3.6 However, in multiple appeals where a number of children would have been offered a place, and to admit that number would seriously prejudice the provision of efficient education or efficient use of resources, the panel must proceed to the second stage.
3.7 The panel must proceed to the second stage where:
a) it finds that the admission arrangements did comply with admissions law and that they were correctly and impartially applied to the child; or
b) it finds that the admission arrangements did not comply with admissions law or were not correctly and impartially applied but that, if they had complied and had been correctly and impartially applied, the child would not have been offered a place;
11 At this stage the characteristics and circumstances of the particular child in question will not, except in extreme cases, be relevant to the question of whether the admission will cause prejudice (R (on the application of M) v Haringey Independent Appeal Panel [2010] EWCA Civ 1103).and it finds that the admission of additional children would prejudice the provision of efficient education or efficient use of resources.

Second stage ? balancing the arguments
3.8 The panel must balance the prejudice to the school against the appellant?s case for the child to be admitted to the school. It must take into account the appellant?s reasons for expressing a preference for the school, including what that school can offer the child that the allocated or other schools cannot. If the panel considers that the appellant?s case outweighs the prejudice to the school it must uphold the appeal.
3.9 In multiple appeals, the panel must not compare the individual cases when deciding whether an appellant?s case outweighs the prejudice to the school. However, where the panel finds there are more cases which outweigh prejudice than the school can admit, it must then compare the cases and uphold those with the strongest case for admission. Where a certain number of children could be admitted without causing prejudice, the panel must uphold the appeals of at least that number of children."

AlienAttack · 03/05/2013 16:43

I've been following this thread with interest and really feel for your DD. I hope that the posters saying you've had the place for 3 days are correct and your DD's place is not withdrawn. But I have some sympathy with the opinion of the posters saying that this is not a mistake about waiting lists but one where you knew your DD had not got a place (back on 1st March, when you said that you didn't even appeal or query) and then subsequently received your 3rd choice school. You say in your post of today at 14.11 that they don't call it a "pass mark" but that's exactly what you called it in your original post. Im not trying to pick holes in what you are writing at this stressful time but I do think the LEA will try their hardest to make a case that you had every reason to know this was a mistake.

PermaShattered · 03/05/2013 16:49

I know - i did call it a passmark. But they don't actually officially call it that. It's pedantics really.

You're right - she didn't have a place on 1 March. I never disputed that. A lot can happen in 8 weeks - like places becoming available/marking errors being uncovered.

lougle I shall read your latest in detail later, thank you :)

OP posts:
AvonCallingBarksdale · 03/05/2013 17:30

Blimey, talk about a rollercoaster of emotions!! Try and relax at the weekend with your DCs and then galvanise yourself again on Tuesday.

Bluebell99 · 03/05/2013 17:36

It would be interesting to know how this mistake came about. But I think your point about your dd's relationship with her sister being affected by a week of her thinking she would be going to the same school is a bit odd. She has has eight weeks of knowing she didn't get into that school. I am also thinking that your dd's anxiety about the school place could have been avoided by not sharing the offer that you suspected had been made in error with her. I know you questioned the offer, but who confirmed it? Was it a a junior member of admissions staff? It does smack of you trying to take advantage of a mistake, because you knew her score was way below the qualifying level and that there are over 188 children ahead of her. I know you are saying she has had a week of believing she had got into the school, but in reality you have always known her score was far too low. I would concentrate on the other schools.

Bluebell99 · 03/05/2013 17:54

I don't mean to sound harsh. You did also say that the other schools, second and third choice are both outstanding. I think it helps our children immensely if we are positive about the schools they go to. Your dd2 probably thinks that in your eyes her sister's grammar school is the better school, and probably already feels devastated that she didn't do well enough to go there. What have been saying to her in the past few weeks about the other two schools?

tiggytape · 03/05/2013 17:56

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiggytape · 03/05/2013 18:02

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tiggytape · 03/05/2013 18:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 03/05/2013 18:14

I'm sure you can do your best to fight for the best school for your daughter, whilst also protecting her as much as you can from the emotional roller-coaster of the process. Unfortunately we have to ride the roller-coaster though as parents don't we ? So, all the best with that over the coming weeks. As a by-stander will be interesting to see how it comes out ... hopefully you're in quite a strong position but I don't know much about the in's and out's of these things. Good luck though Smile

lougle · 03/05/2013 18:44

AlienAttack if you go back and read the OP, the chronology is clear:

1. Did not have a place at Grammar in question; was offered 3rd Choice.
The OP at that point could not have known how 'well' her DD did, other than that she was 30 points below cut off. There is no indication on offers day of where you are in the list.

2. 26th April (Friday) was told verbally that a place was allocated at Grammar.

The OP was given 4 separate indications that she had a place:

a) telephone call to say that a place was allocated. (The OP queried this).
b) The admissions lady phoned the other LA and confirmed the place.
c) The LA sent out written confirmation.
d) The LA withdrew her appeal at the 2nd choice school.

  1. 29th April (Monday) the OP received a call from a friend whose DD scored substantially higher than the OP's DD, who was placed 188th.
  1. The OP queries again whether there is an error. She is categorically told 'no'.

How many times must she pursue it before she accepts the place is hers?

The law is clear. The OP has been exemplary in her actions. Not even a slight bit of cover up. Simply following procedure.

The OP's DD is highly disadvantaged if they withdraw the place. It leaves her with no place at all. The LA has withdrawn both her place at school 3 and her appeal for school 2.

wineoclocktimeyet · 03/05/2013 18:45

OP - have you been given any indication of how/why the initial offer was mistakenly made?

lougle · 03/05/2013 18:46

Actually, 5 separate indications. e) The LA withdrew the DD's place at the third choice school.