Calling atheists (and anyone else with an opinion) - am I right to get a bit peed off about this?

[Tinker]

Eldest daughter goes to a state school, no relgious affiliation. However, it does seem to hasve close (too close, for my liking) ties with a local church - Christian. Have tolerated that.

Yesterday, she came home very excited, telling me their school had been picked to sing on a cd. On closer inspection of the leaflet, and then reading the website, it's a Christian thing. I won't stop her doing it but I am a bit peed off that a) I wasn't told about it and b) I feel they are using kids to promote Chritianity.

I'm going to investigate the site (popconnections.co.uk) a bit more when I get a chance and will write to the head but just wanted some perspective on this. Anyone else know about them? Am I over-reacting?

it completely baffles me when people get all het up about christianity impeaching on their children

children will make up their own mind when they are ready

if they want to be atheist, they can be that. If they want to be a Christian, they can be that too

but they don't truly have a choice unless they know something about either side

Athiests and Christians come out of both church and state schools and also from christian and non-christian families. it is an individual choice just like any other and as parents, we should give our children access to all the options and let them decide

if it was a CD extolling the virtues of recreational drug use, I'd see your point

but please

actually think tinker is reacting in quite a pragmatic way to this. Is content to let her dd participate as she will enjoy it etc, but checking out the group behind it just to be sure.

DH and I are both aetheists and would happily (well, DH might mutter a bit acually, but I'd persuade him round!) let ds ( when old enough...only a baby!) visit mosques, be in nativity play, make a happy hannukah card etc etc...have no problem with education and awareness of all cultures and belief systems but wouldn't be happy about 'promoting' a religion (and there is a difference between learning about something and promotong it)

Quite agree with cappucinoinabadmood. I am an atheist but I think it's important my kids learn about all kinds of beliefs and religions so that they can make their own minds up. I don't think this CD is any more brainwashing or cultish than singing hymns in assembly or going to church occasionally. I take my kids to church from time to time so that they can see what goes on. I wouldn't dream of keeping my kids away from all religion in case they became indoctrinated - a) that would just make the issue secret and furtive and underground - madness and b) I hope that they will be sensible and thoughtful enough to decide for themselves. DH and I are honest about our beliefs with them, so thay have two differing views at home already!
Anyway, my kids would just be excited to sing on the CD and would be very cross if I put the kibosh on it!

Who has mentioned brainwashing???

No problem with kids learning about other religions in their RE classes.

Just rang said organisation to find out who funds them Wouldn't disclose because not sure if they (the funders) want to be disclosed - fair enough. Poor bloke, got all my angst which should be directed at the school.

"but they don't truly have a choice unless they know something about either side" Intrigued as to how far "knowing something about either side" extends to? And why just Christian v atheist if you're taking that point of view?

But if it's not brainwashing you're worried about, I'm unclear as to why you're upset. From what I can gather, the CD will be used as a fundraiser for the school, so it's not swelling the coffers of the C of E. And I suppose most of us are concentrating on atheism v christianity rather than atheism v buddhism or Islam because that it what is being discussed on this thread. Although personally I wouldn't mind whether my kids sang on a buddhist or muslim CD either.

I suppose you're right to challenge me on why Christian vs Athiest

I guess it's because we live in a country with a christian culture, we have a national church. Culturally the Church of England is our 'first call', I suppose, when it comes to spirituality.

As far as how far you go with the connections, that's really up to the individual to decide

I'm principally peed off about not being informed beforehand and the assumption that parents don't mind about this. But, thinking about it, yes, it is the drip drip insidious "brainwashing" I don't like - listen, if you dare, to The Meaning of Life "lyrics". And this is over and above the singing of a few hymns at school assembly.

Singing on a Muslim or Buddhist cd would actually be much less of a problem because they are not getting a drip drip of "Allah created this" etc, it is so far removed from the everyday Christian perspective that it would be pretty meaningless.

'drip, drip, drip' ??!!

sorry to interfere with any conspiracy theory but in my experience the Church of England, sadly, doesn't have the wherewithal for brainwashing. We just don't have it in us. Really. The church in our town centre runs a mothers and toddlers group and call it 'outreach', they never mention religion at all but believe by being nice to other mums they are spreading god's love and that is the only point of it. It's just like any other mums and tots group.

there's no insiduous plan that I'm aware of

but the buddhists are everywhere with their meditation classes and their little postcards

Fortunately, having been raised a Catholic, C of E hasn't figured much in my life. Doesn't represent a "national church" to me, has nothing to do with me. But the "God does this" etc stuff is insidious and fairly non-sensical when, for me, there is no such thing.

Anyway, am being distracted from writing my letter now.

well if you were raised a catholic, it obviously didn't work...

so it's not exactly brainwashing, is it? or if it is, it's not very good brainwashing

sorry, I am in a bad mood and enjoying stirring things with my big stirry stick

But it still causes me guilt!

you don't get that so much as an Anglican

no-one's actually all that bothered

That's the trouble, C of E is so wishy washy that not much to rebel against so tends to stick. Far more dangerous

THe thing is, if you're already a christian, then you will come at it - necessarily - from that perspective. And if you're an atheist, you've probably spent bloody ages working out exactly why you don't like organised religion and getting frustrated with the all-pervasiveness of christianity in an arguably multi-religion/secular society.
So when atheists say they don't like the 'drip drip drip' it is nothing really to do with the P+T group/fair-trade-promoting/good-deed-doing side of it. FWIW I think the atheists should get their act together and do more of that sort of thing. It's the assumption that religion is all about good, and that we live in a christian society so we should just accept that kids can be told whatever and there is no room for complaint about any of it.

ooh yes. and you could find yourself in a half-empty church wearing \link{http://www.marksandspencer.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=6117&Product_Id=1921018\this hat} and bearing a clutch of raffle tickets

without really knowing how you got there

You're right Pruni, the atheists should get their act together a bit. Problem is, atheists don't necessarily see themselves as a singular unified group. I call myself an atheist for ease but really I feel I'm a neutral really. A blank

But that is an atheist, tinker - the no-god bit.
There is the Humanist Society but it's not exactly a community.
Kind of lame, isn't it?

I know but don't even like the "theist" bit of atheist. Being picky now, I know. There must be a better word, probably is, too tired to think properly atm.

So are you more of an agnostic then Tinker?

Ooo no SG. That suggests I'm still considering. Jonathan Miller explained it well (well, he would wouldn't he?). But I can't remember what he said now . It's a non-issue, in a way. Will look up what he said if get a chance.

Tinker am really going to annoy you now and ask you what made you rebel against your RC upbringing?

Just had a mooch and found this:

If you saw Jonathan Miller's series 'A History of Disbelief' then you'd have heard from Miller himself about his uneasiness at calling himself an atheist, even though he most definitely is. He said something like...

"I'm rather reluctant to call myself an atheist, not because I'm embarrassed, ashamed, in fear of my life or even socially disabled as I might once have been. No, no...I'm reluctant because the term 'atheism' itself takes on almost sectarian connotations and it hardly seems necessary to have a name for something that scarcely enters my thoughts at all."

Cam - hmm, a sort of seeing the light gradually? Wasn't rebelling really, still went to mass when left home! Just gradually realised none of it made any sense, hadn't really thought through what I thought until I was older, not surrounded by other Catholics to reinforce belief? But it took ages until I was able to say "I don't believe" without worrying that I was going to go to hell for just saying it.

Ah TInker, I see what you mean. (Secular) humanist? (Sounds wanky though.)
JMiller

I am with Tinker on this (and on the original point). An atheist believes there is no god, and so is defined by an attitude to god. But the concept of god is just not important to me. Humanist is the best label I have found.

However DS is in the local church choir and we want DD to get a free musical education the same way, so last night I agreed to go to church regularly in order to encourage and support her as a choir member. DW suggested I could read a book there, but I just could not do that. Does that make me a hypocrite? It is more important to me to support my daughter that to stay away from a church that I do not believe in.