Calling atheists (and anyone else with an opinion) - am I right to get a bit peed off about this?

[Tinker]

Eldest daughter goes to a state school, no relgious affiliation. However, it does seem to hasve close (too close, for my liking) ties with a local church - Christian. Have tolerated that.

Yesterday, she came home very excited, telling me their school had been picked to sing on a cd. On closer inspection of the leaflet, and then reading the website, it's a Christian thing. I won't stop her doing it but I am a bit peed off that a) I wasn't told about it and b) I feel they are using kids to promote Chritianity.

I'm going to investigate the site (popconnections.co.uk) a bit more when I get a chance and will write to the head but just wanted some perspective on this. Anyone else know about them? Am I over-reacting?

Twig

(but what if they accept it?? what then? eh?)

Future priests and nuns in rebellion at athiest parents! lol!

priests and rabbis and nuns .. oh my

I'd be peed off too. Though I do think this bit in their section is quite reassuring:

"We acknowledge the freedom of people of all faiths or none, both to hold and to express their beliefs and convictions respectfully and freely.

We never want to impose our Christian faith or belief on others."

I'd be looking out for song lyrics that contradicted this ethos and pointing them out strongly, though!

I'm offended by the cheesiness of the songs!

Are you the anti-cheese, Rhubarb?

Yes I am and this offends my anti-cheese religion! I shall get onto them straight away! I'm in a right controversial mood today!

dont like it - agree with sly and underhand thing. Are they CRB checked I wonder?

I'd write to the head, certainly (and have a really good look at the site). Your permission should have been asked beforehand. I think 'exploitation' is probably a bt harsh but would be interested to hear who they're funded by. But imo the positives will probably outweigh the negatives as far as your dd is concerned.

Yes I think you should write to the head also. It will hopefully make them feel uncomfortable at least - even if they don't agree with you. I went to an RC school but have always been an atheist. At the age of 13 they showed the girls a pro-life anti abortion video (actually showed a fetus being aborted via suction method). They didn't seek parental consent and my mum was furious. Even faith schools should seek consent from parents in my opinion. Christian CDs are I grant you not quite in the same bracket, but a principle is a principle nonetheless.

Agree with all your discomfort and wish it wasn't so, but (and I wish I could remember the official wording here) state schools are expected to reflect in their curriculum that the UK is a predominantly christian culture. In practice this means that supposedly non-demoninational state schools can be fervently christian. Usually depends on the head's own views IME.

I wouldn't worry about your dd 'getting god' though. seems to me that even very young children can develop a healthy scepticism if they are left to make up their own minds.

Oh, and do buy the CD or your dd will be devastated!!

If it was Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist songs, how would you all feel? Would it make any difference? If so, why?

Personally, I think it would - if it seemed to be promoting a religion I did not support. So I think Tinker's concerns are valid, but nothing to get too worked up about. DD(8) worships many gods, and prays to the magnolia from time to time.

What are atheist songs?

I am a Christian and I think your permission should have been sought. It would then be up to you to explain to your dd what your objections (if any) were. It's not right to get children all excited about something only to be told that their parents do not wish them to take part, for perfectly valid reasons. However, I do remember a Christian Mnetter being taken apart for saying that she did not want her son to visit a mosque so is there a difference?

I think there is a difference. There is a difference between visiting a church (educational) and singing in church as if you are taking part in the service. I think often objections like Tinker's is taken the wrong way. As if you want to shut your eyes and ears to anything religious. I am an atheist, but I probably know the bible as well as many who call themselves christians.

I don't know, so I did a search:

\link{http://www.atheistalliance.org/aaw/atheistmusic2.html\atheist songs}

Ha ha...well done! New idea for bedtime songs in my house then. I need to fight back (see my previous post on very religious DD)

I think the objection raised at the time was that removing shoes and washing before entering the mosque was tantamount to participating in the religion. BTW I would not object to this personally as I don't believe outward actions such as removing shoes or singing reflect inner faith. As a Baptist I don't call my children Christian, they will be Christians if they make a commitment when they are older.

I would feel very uncomfortable with the whole thing, and would certainly write to the Head asking him/her to confirm exactly why they were doing it, exactly who was benefitting from money raised and why the parents weren't asked their opinion before the project was organised.

I agree that the process of learning songs, singing and performing as part of a choir and making a cd would be great fun, and probably very worthwhile socially and creatively. I think your dd would enjoy it, and I doubt whether they'd be able to indoctrinate her quite that easily...

However..... I would be completely outraged if my child took part in something, through their state primary, that raised funds for the Alpha Course without my prior consent (which I certainly wouldn't give). Just the mention of those words fills me with horror! We're talking (in my humble atheist opinion) about a group that is an evangelising tool for fundamentalist christianity, with strongly homophobic, pro-life and many other views that go completely against my beliefs. I would not want my daughter fund-raising for them. That's the bit I'd want to know more about.

And you can all call me an old misery if you like

Looking at the website it looks like the schools pay Pop connection a fee of £350, then teh school sells CD's to parents/families etc to cover any additional costs. That seems to be where Pop connection make their money. It doesn't look like that sre making money by selling the CD's on teh open market. To me it looks a bit like the typical DVD/Video done of the school play tbh.

A company comes in and taches teh kids some songs (I guess that practice beforehand) then they record the songs, produce Cd's and sells them to parents.

Also looking at what they write about the songs they are not hymns as such, they are more about being nice and kind etc. These are things that are good no matter if you have a religion. I don't know if they even mention god in the songs.

Here is a bit from the ethos of the company

' It seeks to teach and model essential life values of love, truth, justice, reconciliation and forgiveness. We believe the way we behave towards one another is vital to improving our communities. All people are valuable regardless of their gender, race, ethnic origin, marital status, sexual orientation, religion, age and physical and mental capability. We want children to learn through music and performing arts how to value people that are different to them.

We acknowledge the freedom of people of all faiths or none, both to hold and to express their beliefs and convictions respectfully and freely.

We never want to impose our Christian faith or belief on others.'

I am jewish and it sound like fun to me.

Bear in mind your daughter might have got the wrong end of teh stick about being 'chosen' and the permission thing. Looks like the leaflet and website has informed you, and I don't think they are really pushing Christianity.

I think that you are absolutely right to be irritated, It does look fairly innocuous (and slightly pukey if you ask me!) but I would be worried about a group with affiliations to Alpha talking to my kids. The web-site ethos does look OK, and your dd will probably have fun, but it is not a standard activity - this is not the occasional assembly by the local priest/ singing the odd hymn. I would guess this will take a significant amount of time, practice etc (our school play takes weeks of practicing as a comparator) and I would have concerns about it. The school should have sent something out in advance to ask parents if they were OK with it (same way as they do at my school when setting up clubs etc) not tell the kids all about it and send them home with a leaflet, there is no way you can now object without upsetting your child. It is thoughtless at the very least. I would definitely not buy the CD - Christian music is dreadful!

Thanks all. Will reply more fully when get a chance. Re being informed though. The leaflet came on the day they had already started rehearsals - bit of a fait accompli by then. And agree, I'll ^have* to but it!!!

Cat64 is factually accurate in what she says, but I think that her interpretation of the situation is probably through the eyes of someone with a strong Christian faith (please do correct me if I'm wrong) and I don't think it is as clear cut as that.

As Nooka says, I think that if you wanted the option of opting out, which is your legal right, then the information should have been given to parents before the children were told, and certainly before rehearsals started! I would imagine that Muslim or Hindu parents may have had queries or objections, and atheist parents shouldn't be seen as any different. And I think that the time commitment and involvement in a project like this goes beyond 'a daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature' and shouldn't be categorised as such.

Good luck Tinker. Will be interested to hear what the school has to say.

Would you be uncomfortable if she was ask to sing Christmas carols during the festive period?

Personally, I think it is a lot of fuss about nothing and sounds like fun