Please be frank: is paying for prep/junior school worth it?

[IHideVegInRice]

Hello, continuation from my previous thread but with a more specific question! We have mixed sex twins - while private is an option at this stage, the local faith school is pretty good.
What can a prep or private junior school offer my DC that could not be matched by state + extra curricular activities?
Looking further ahead, would they be disadvantaged when applying for highly ranked public schools (if we/they feel this is right) later on if they did not attend private school at primary level?
Thanks!

Crikey sorry - didn't mean to cause offence. In case it wasn't clear: I don't want my children to grow up with airs and graces or with any sense of entitlement. I expect them to work bloody hard, and I would like to do my best for them - whether this means private or state school remains to be seen, but the reasonable person can see there are pros and cons of both options and we are fortunate that as a family we have the choice. I've found this thread really helpful, and I'm sorry if I have caused any upset - certainly was not my intention.

Oh, and on a lighter note - I most certainly do my shopping in Asda. Their chocolate peanuts are the best, ever!

IHideVegInRice

You won't escape the "airs and graces" at a state school. They just come in a different form. While there are plenty of private school students who seem arrogant, there are just equally as many obnoxious and lary students who attended state school.

They are the same - they just appear different to others.

I am sorry but it seems to me that you regard state school as a social experiment for a few years for them to get to know the kids "below stairs" rather than a valid education in itself.

To a point you are right about friends, but the friends they make in the early years wont matter much. My friend was moaning that her child was displaying a rather brattish attitude berating children without swimming pools at home, so she decided to speak to a mum in her sons class at prep what SHE did to teach her children appreciation for their good fortune, and got the reply that the prayed together reinforcing that it was Gods will that they were so fortunate.

Having said that. My oldest is going into the independent sector for Y7. He sat the exams for various public schools in January, and got offers from the schools he wanted most. He has a state background, which probably is worse than your average UK state education. He was educated largely in Norway.
He did Reception and Y1 in a London RC primary, then we moved to Norway where they start school at 6, so he started a fresh, and spent 3 years in Norway. He were still just doing addition and subtraction and basic reading homework when we returned to London 3 years later, where he joined Y5. (from Norwegian Y3, thereby "skipping" Y4 alltogether)

He was shellshocked. He did have a tutor from January, for a year (not including holidays) until his exams, and still did really well.

He has not had music. He has not had Stagecoach (which the other parents proclaim is brilliant for learning public speaking), neither has he had French, or any other foreign language (not counting Norwegian which would not count at all)

What has he done? He has done lots and lots of mountaineering and outdoors survival skills. To be honest, I bet he has done the equivalent of the Duke of Edinburgh Gold award, purely from a lifestyle of hiking through mountains and managing on his own. He can find shelter, he knows how to source what he needs from building a bonfire from scratch. He knows how to handle himself with a box of matches and a knife. He can put live bait on a fishing hook and go for it. He can navigate using map and compass. He can build robotics, and program the robotic brain of lego mindstorm, he is fabulous at skiing, mountain biking and has stamina like an ox. He turned 11 on saturday and has presented us with a shopping list with all the requirements for building his own computer. He is pretty great. His education up to y5 has been abysmal, but he has still earned a good place at a private secondary, because of who he is, not where he was educated (rather in spite of where he was educated)

So, my advice to you, enjoy your children, challenge them, nurture him and her, but dont think that school is alfa omega for making them who they are, YOU are.

Lovely to hear that your ds is doing so well, Quint. he sounds marvellous

Private school is becoming deeply unfashionable.

"Private school is becoming deeply unfashionable."
A bit of a sweeping generalisation LittleFrieda 98% of our friends with DC's send them to private schools over 70% are boarding I know of no one who is planning to stop doing this but then maybe we're all just "unfashionable"; what a relief.

'Private school becoming deeply unfashionable...' In whose view!

Wasnt a survey done a while ago where 65% of people said they would use a private school if they could afford it.

I was listening to LBC Radio this morning and a number of people called in saying they dont have a school place in London for Sept!

Ihide
It really does depend on your local state schools. My children are in a prep which does well at getting boys into a couple of the London day schools that we are particularly interested in. My DC are not Christian so we had very limited options for state primaries as 3 of our 4 nearest primaries were faith schools. So for us, prep from YR was the best option.

Children do join the prep other than YR. Yr3 is a fairly usual entry point as some pre-preps only cover KS1 age groups. Yr6 is another entry point for boys that are aiming for 13+ schools.

If your local state schools are good then have a look at them and see what you think. One consideration for me was that the local state primaries had very little outside space whereas the prep has 2 sets of playing fields.

The prep is ethnically and religiously diverse as is the local area. There isn't the same level of socio-economic diversity. However, if our local faith schools are anything to go by the are less socially and ethnically diverse that the community schools. I did dig out the figures from the Dept of Ed website before and the difference was very noticeable. So if you are going for state education for diversity's sake it might be interesting to compare the EAL and FSM figures for the church and community schools - I was a bit shocked.

Happy gardening - the ISC publish a census. Intake from abroad (mostly China) grows 5% year on year, intake overall broadly static (if you smooth the fluctuations). About as unfashionable as a Burberry check shirt & trousers ensemble.

In a recession fewer parents can afford fees but most parents would pay if they could afford it so I suspect anyone talking about fashion is just covering up the fact they made a bad career choice as a young woman and now pay the price in not being able to afford a decent education for their child.

I would be surprised if private school parents decide to pay fees because they want to look fashionable.

Xenia - I made an excellent choice of DH.

My DC is in a local (expensive end of the spectrum) prep school; the other will follow in a couple of years. This is against my inclination, and I have struggled with that - I am opposed to the very existence of private schools - but that is my problem. The alternative was a local primary rated 'excellent' by OFSTED. There were some very good practical reasons for our choice, and some less good reasons. But despite my significant reservations I have to admit that there is no comparison between the two schools. Within 18 months there is a clear difference both in the type and quality of work being done (I am v close to mothers of children in the other school so have some opportunity for direct comparison). Of course, much of this is due to the extra attention children in a small classes with lots of extra support receive. It is in part due to superb facilities and highly qualified teaching for (for eg) sport, art, music. It is due to the children not having to be prepared for ridiculous SATS etc, and instead taking a real delight in what they learn. Much of this, of course, I could have given them through the extra tutors etc (which, yes, their friends in the local primary have) - though of course, my DC gets to play in the evening (while their friends are having to sit at the kitchen table being tutored), which I think is valuable. There is other stuff, which shouldn't matter but actually in the real world does - like making sure all children even in Reception have lovely handwriting and nice manners - I have noticed that people respond really positively to stuff like this, although there is no denying that it's superficial. But I think what has been invaluable for my DC is the increased confidence (and this is absolutely not another word for arrogance) she has been given. They are able to provide a lovely, nurturing atmosphere. Lots of (for eg) performance opportunities might be part of this but I suppose simply the extra time given to each child has been invaluable, along with the ethos of the school. Also, I've noticed that even amongst very little children of my acquaintance it isn't very cool to be good at things - schoolwork, music - but in DCs school both hard work and talent seem to be respected right across the year groups. Of course, this is school specific, and I'm not saying it would be the case in all circs (and after all, a horrible child in any class would significantly affect the experience of other children, so there are many things money can't guarantee!). We are also v lucky that most of the families in the school are not at all snobby, which was a bit worry of mine, and lots of them are like us - struggling financially to give their DC the very best they can. Of course, my DC could have gone to the local primary until 7, and then moved (at that point I think a real difference emerges in academic terms, partly due to all the above but also to having subject teachers - I get to see a lot of school work from a range of schools and there is a very obvious gap in content - of course the kids at DC's school aren't any brighter; they've just covered loads more stuff), but that wasn't an option for me - DC would not cope well with the change, I think. Anyway, I wanted to say this because whilst working back from secondary is a good idea in practical terms I think if you are focussing on the happiness and roundedness of your children, then you might consider my experience. Do you want the best for your child? Which school offers the best for that individual child? Don't forget, you can't go back and do education differently - you get one shot at giving your child the very best education you can. We are v lucky in that there were things we could sacrifice to make that just about possible; it doesn't sound as if you, OP are in that position - it sounds like you are just worried about wasting the money. If it is a good school, it won't be a waste. I'd be grateful for being in such a comfortable position, and then decide where your child would most like to spend each day now, not in a few years' time, and where they would be most likely to thrive, regardless of age, or anything else for that matter.

Who cares if w're unfashionable I know that my Ds gets an education that is vastly superior to any offered in the state sector. Thats good enough for me.
I think you will also find that the reason for the large increase of children from abroad has most to do with the size of boarding fees and their increase over the last 10 - 15 years which has been significantly higher than inflation. Coming in at at least £32 000 PA per child only a tiny % of the UK population can afford this.

Xenia is correct! Some women want to be SAHM's or work part time. Their choice of course - but unless your partner is an investment banker or you have some inherited money then you are unlikely to be able to afford the fees.

And of course, you are then relying on them to continue to pay the fees and in this world of marriage break ups......

I had a good look at the private boarding schools because tbh I didnt want to choose a school that was primarily attended by pupils from abroad. The unwritten view is that these schools did not want to take more than 10% of pupils from overseas.

Talking about schools such as Harrow, Charterhouse and Wellington btw

Yes it is worth it but much more of a luxury than educating privately at senior level IMO.

I have done local state primary up to year 4. I chose private after that because I have no wish to drive my children to endless clubs and tutors. They do everything in school and have enormous amounts of fun doing it.

I agree Tacked - my SIL is using state and then private from 11 due to financial constraints.

However, despite the fact that we wouldnt have a mortgage if we didnt go private I dont regret it for a moment!.

I also agree that I just dont have the time to drive the boys around to clubs and tutors. The school provides all of this - of course at a cost!

Perfectly possible to join a prep at year 7 as LONG AS you have done lots of sport of the kind that the prep plays - eg join local hockey or netball club while at primary if being in the teams and practices is importatn to you, also don't wait until then to learn music otherwise you'll be one of the very few studying for grade 1.

Private school is not unfashionable, it's simply become unaffordable for the vast vast majority.

Cory - Thanks. We had a terrible year, for all sorts of reasons last year, and this year it has all slotted together for him!

I think there may well be less advantage in prep schools in the next 10-20 years or so. I predict independent school exams at 11 becoming increasingly tutor-proof designed to assess innate IQ. IAPS apparently already believe that NVR and VR can't really be improved through tutoring and I predict more along the lines of Durham CEM tests becoming the norm. Already computer tests are popular.

Class sizes in preps I predict will be generally bigger in the future - up to about 24 or 25. Subject specialist teachers where they exist will be increasingly a thing of the past too I think. Studies seem to be showing there is no advantage to having a small class size just in a high quality teacher.

Independent schools complain that the over-tutored arrive there and then can't keep up. Hothousing is frowned upon and there's lots of talk about the lack of soft skills & creativity in children & members of the workforce they become that have been overly crammed. Independent schools want the free thinkers, the naturally bright and the biddable.

The exception will be London and feeder preps for the well known public schools.

I think the class of people who used to consider private schools automatically for their children is dwindling. Middle-class professionals, unless superstars like Xenia, find it a push to afford them, certainly at primary level.

There's also a huge amount of talk about free schools/academies which have made them at least look at a sector they previously would have considered beyond the pale.

State schools in London, at least, are far improved from even a decade ago. Many offer very impressive facilities and achieve excellent results, especially given the backgrounds of many pupils. A lot of my (privately educated) contemporaries take the long view that the best unis now actively search for state-educated pupils, so their children's long-term prospects should not be damaged and £££ will be saved.

So private schools are becoming a bit like Burberry, out of reach of many - plus there are more and more decent high-street knock offs available for those who want something close to the product without the price.

MrsShackleton I think you may well be right. Anecdotal but I've been shocked recently by some private school pupil failing to get into Oxbridge as predicted - think IQ of 150, very pleasant, creative, free thinking and 5 A*s at A'level sort of ilk.

I was going to say the same thing as mrsshackleton. Fewer and fewer middle class professionals are able to afford them, or should I say would feel the pain and therefore look for alternatives. Even doctors are in that category (unless they do extensive private work).