Selective independants

[poppydoppy]

Do they look better on League tables because the standard of teaching is better or just because they select the children most likely to do well?

Yellowtip Law? That wasn't necessary in the 80s and it isn't now. As a client I remember the young blue eyed boys (as they mainly were then) being offered up as to the slaughter by the older patrician partners, their "overnighters" served up as evidence of our privilege . I made myself unpopular by demanding that we agreed sensible chargeable hours aligned to the task, at every level, in advance (yup privatisations, been on my mind a lot this week, a lot of hand bagging) . I am appalled that young bright recruits are still treated as canon fodder, it's the culture not the demands of the work. What gets me is that my peers are party to this, they didn't agree with it at the time but now they are busy advising DCs that they only recruit from six universities (none of which they went to). At least the six are in the forefront of fair access........

Copthall of course. And of course she may be exaggerating. I certainly hope so. Is any of that sort of stuff really that urgent? (Mind you, that attitude may be why I was so bad at the job). She's being very matter of fact though, not complaining at all (in fact just saying that she gets supper provided and a comfy ride home and that she likes it a lot). Yes, I've avoided the thread asking what were people doing in the Eighties. I thought saying I was at the launch of the British Gas privatisation might not go down so well :) (to be fair I was only asked to correct a couple of spellings and I think hand out the coffees). How one's perspective can change....

I was a civil servant in the days of all night sittings. Did nothing for the decision making, and made everyone very laddish and macho! Lots of crwp legislation got through in the 80s- I'm sure that's partly why,

Not everyone seeker :) Perhaps everyone who was successful.

?

Sorry, get it now.

Well I never met a Cabinet minister who was improved by an all night sitting...........!

yellow

I don't think there's a lawyer out there who hasn't pulled an all nighter. They're not ideal of course, but sometimes unavoidable.

I actually think it's not the odd all nighters that really hurt, but the cumulative effect of constant long hours...but sadly that's the job.

Why necessary?
Well sometimes of course they're caused by machismo and inefficiency within lawyers...but not mostly.

They're actually caused by the fact that most law firms are down to their fighting weight and everyone needs to be very busy to optimise profits.

Then there's the international aspect. Bakc in the eighties most deals were happening here in the UK. Now there is very little work here. DH currently has a job on where the clients are in So Cal so obviously the time difference does not work in his favour. He, his assitant and his trainee have not finished work before midnight for over a week.

This is one reason DH makes very sure that trainees and young associates hoping to join his firm understand that they may have to travel a fair bit...

Another reason for silly hours is client inefficiency. DH is brutally efficient. A machine. But his clients...not so much. He will often get shafted by the late arrival of a document.

And of course there's the issue of money. Sometimes deals are very price sensitive so have to be done ASAP on the QT. Or sometimes the bansk will only hold things together for a short period (this is far more common now with firms going to the wall).

The idea that international commercial law can be done in civilised hours is a non runner sadly. I wish it were otherwise. That said, as your DD becomes more senior she will get more control of her life. DH rarely works weekends (well he might work but he's usually at home), he has never missed a xmas or birthday. We have regular family holidays which he will not move (he'd rather work on the beach).

It's not an easy life and most fall away but for those who can do it, and want to do it, it offers very good rewards.

Yellow, i don't think your daughter is not exaggerating, as I suppose you know really. It has always been a hard slog and harder now than it has ever been as you must see from your daughter.

The business model, with early promotion to partnership - and if you miss that vital period through taking time out for motherhood , then partnership prospects are hugely reduced - is not good for women. (I don't think it good for men either ). Partners currently have a far shorter shelf life than they did 15 years ago as they are no longer able to slow down as they beome senior,which inevitably encourages them to maximise their own income during those limited years and doesn't encourage long term management of people or the business.

The model needs to change if diversity is to be be more than just a politically correct term used to keep folk happy. There are people in firms working on it but the people i know who are given the job of doing this see plenty of goodwill but no real incentive to change because the current model gives no incentive and of course the recession makes this worse.

. I think, until there is a change, perhaps an answer for the individual would be to try Xenia' s choice of having one's own business or using the excellent experience gained to move into something different after a few years. There must be some who still thrive upon it, but a number of our (aging) friends in the city feel ground down and those who have made a change, it seems, would not go back.

I expect there are others on the thread, more directly involved,who might have something to say.

Ah I see word already has!

slip DH says the biggest factor is the applicants. They're overwhelmingly from private school and grammar. A fair number are from abroad.

The ones who aren't get a fair crack as DH is a working class state schooled lad so not looking for Eton style. But DH says they're not always as polished, as confident, as savvy, as international looking.

As for women, well more apply than men and the number of woemn trainees is usually bigger than the men. But along the way women jack it in so there are relatively few women partners. The ones there are are hugely involved in encouraging other women to stick it out and you often find clusters...

There is no such thing as 'International looking'.

International in outlook, maybe, RussiansOnTheSpree?

I certainly wasn't willing to hack the ridiculous hours and all-nighters of City law work for more than a few years. Yes, it's fun when you are young, free and single and know you don't have to do it forever, but I heard far too many telephoned goodnight conversations to children who hadn't been seen in person for several days, problems with nannies, and broken relationships as lack of seeing one's other half descended into lack of getting on with the other half particularly well when you did see them, which descended into pretending you had to work late through circumstances out of your control when actually that day you'd had a long lunch break and only started working at about 4pm and had no intention of going home to help with the stress of children's homework, bathtime or bedtime routines... Basically, I saw a lot of people with dysfunctional relationships and couldn't help but connect that to their dysfunctional work lives... and I did not want that for myself or my children, if I were ever lucky enough to have children. Fairly predictably, therefore, I didn't hang around there when I had children. No telephoned goodnight conversations and complaints about nannies or private school entrance exams for me! Even Xenia had the common sense to see it is not necessary to lead that sort of life in order to be successful.

Of course there is russian.

Some people are very global in their outlook. Others view things in a much more UK based way.

There's nothing at all wrong with the later, but it wouldn't be a good fit for an international law firm.

Rabbit Nah, it's just bunkum. I have an international role in my firm, my job title includes that very word and I have to go....everywhere :( (I have just managed to neatly sidestep going to Somewhere Scary in South America though. Which I'm quietly pleased about. However the whole Smewhere Scary In South America saga has made me less [smily of a person vomiting] about going back to Smewhere Where They Drive On The Pavement In The Former Soviet Union so perhaps it was just a bit of psychological warfare on the part of the chairman. Who knows) Either you can do your job, or not. At graduate entry level, either you have the potential to do the job, or not. It doesn't matter about your outlook. In fact, practically everywhere in the world is a shit hole but if you don't know that before you've been, and have some silly fantasy about the world being an interesting and inviting place, then it's not a problem.

Word nope, you're completely wrong there. Sorry. You just have to be able to do the job the best. And then it doesn't matter if you hate the sight and touch of foreign soil or love it with all your heart (so long as you don't give away how you feel - but you won't be good at the job if people know what you really think anyway).

rabbit there was an interesting article in The Times on Saturday about XX women.

And how many XX women (Cheryl Sanberg was mentioned natch) spned a lot of time trying to show women how to make high commitment jobs work with family life, whilst not really understanding that most women don't want to make it work.

russian I didn't say you have to love anyhting.

But you do have to understand it. And you do have to accept it. Some people have no interest in either.

But it does beg the question, why anyone with an iota of intelligence would want to do a job that involved so much of what they hated...

I love it when people try and tell me what my job is, and what qualities are needed to do my job. Particularly when they don't do my job.

word Money, love. Money. But there are other compensating factors too.

RussiansOnTheSpree - I think you spell it out there when you say you mustn't give away your feelings about foreign soil if you want the job. That's what an international outlook is - the ability to agree to work in any shithole, despite your own or your family's feelings about it. It's pretty much the same thing as naked ambition. Law firms have no real interest in whether you genuinely like working abroad (as they know that in reality even those who like the idea of being based overseas for a while, or even long term, generally have views on which parts of the world they would happily do this in), just in whether they can send you to any shit hole they like if the need arises and then keep you there for a few years if necessary.

DH says he smiles to himself when applicants say they want to travel.

Because of course it's not often fun.

But the fact remains that he has a lot of clients overseas and it's his job and the job of those who work around him to keep those clients happy. And whilst much of that will be doing a good job, anothe rlarge part of it will be keeping that relationship alive. Which does require a different set of skills.

And yes, DH would much rather have people around him who understand and accept that.

russian but surely you could do something that earned good money and you liked?

Lots of legal roles don't involve traveling to shit holes.

Most of DH's trips are to California. Which could be a lot worse! And they're not that often. Most of the work he does here in the uk. Which does mean the hours can be dodgy, but at leats he's not on a plane!

Rabbit Technically an international outlook is understanding what is needed to work internationally. It's got nothing to do with liking or disliking travel and very little to do with language skills either. It's completely different to being cosmopolitan or long suffering/prepared to put up with shit. It's a mixture of knowledge base and experience. And no graduate trainee applicant will have what we mean by an international outlook. And they certainly won't be 'international looking' which is what Word originally claimed and which I assume was in fact an unacknowledged typo on her part.

word I never said I don't like my job.

Doesn't an international outlook also means being the sort of person who might be appealing to employers/clients from other countries?

Seeker Not really. Because if that was the case then you wouldn't get very many women in senior international roles sadly.

Oh I hate it when I miss the bit of the thread that was about the OP!

Um, internationalization, yes. It is good. Probably.