Would you be prepared to pay more tax to get better state education for all?

[happygardening]

Any other suggestions welcome to ensure that all where ever they live and whatever their background have access to education of the highest quality.

No.

Emma has a point.

Education does breed poise and confidence.

Perhaps where private school pupils feel more able to challenge and debate with teachers on an equal footing whereas state schools are much more shut up and be talked at.

But I am also of the opinion that absolutely every child deserves a chance, and none more than those with parents who do not value education.

State schools seem to excel at turning out generations of academically able students with low self esteem primarily because the sub culture amongst students is to be anything but intelligent and capable. Therein lies another debate of how much of a role the popular media plays in this.

Nothing is more likely to give young people terrible self-esteem than forcing them down the university route, getting them into debt and them then not finding a graduate-level job.

happygardening

The parents I really look up to here in the UK are my friend's parents who would be classed WC. However, they were first generation immigrants, and as we know from previous thread, they might be different.

They really did EVERYTHING in their power to get their children a good education which does unfortunately include private schooling. My friend got in through "assisted places" while her brother (Labour was in power by that time) was funded by the entire family - with uncles and aunts chipping in. They made loads of sacrifices in their lives, the most caring parents I've ever known, and are still relatively prudent with everything.

Yes, I look up to people like them - but I've noticed that this is either a trait of first generation immigrants orvery rare.

But paying schools on the number or percentage if students attending university was always going to result in schools pushing university over and above other options. That's a flaw that needs to change.

Universities need to cut back and only offer courses that provide a career at the end- medicine, dentistry, physiotherapy, teaching, vetinary science, and law for example. What does American Studies qualify a person for?

Happy. There are several grammar schools which regularly get better results than Eton, Winchester, harrow and Roedean. I did not mention Westminster or either of the St Paul's schools.

For my part I'd love to know exactly which 'top state grammar' you reckon offered your DS a place. That would not out you, after all.

"American Studies" should be categorized under "Politics" and not be a different degree IMHO.

Seeker. The Coleridge Grammars must be good though, or else Edwin wouldn't be considering them for Rose and Chas.

One of my cousins read American Studies and went to work for IBM, where he had a long and lucrative career!

WorriedTeenMum, post of the thread in my opinion.

The best private schools find a way of letting the best teachers (who don't want to "manage") teach and pay them appropriately so that they don't feel disadvantaged by staying in the classroom.

Bonsoir - but was it his degree in particular that got him the job or ? my field used to be IT although i have an IT degree you could get into IT with any degree, infact at one point we had a ex train driver on our team .
other roles e.g Project Management do not require a degree directly related to it, your cousin may have landed on his feet but i'm sure there are many other who studies the same course who are possible languishing at the job centre somewhere.

I do agree with Tasmania that things like American studies should come under Politics or International Relations.

Does it matter? Some of us are delighted with what we get when we pay and others would never as a matter of principle pay. If we're all happy and half good university places to go state schoolers most people are content.

As for types of degree there will always be people who want to study a subject for its own sake and plenty are then recruited during the milk round.

Schools should not be allowed to focus only on the top 50% or whatever who will get 5 GCSEs. There should also be rigid floor targets.

Every single student should leave school able to demonstrably read, write and count (this doesnt necessarily mean GCSE). For each student who cant achieve this the HT should have a duty to demonstrate the interventions etc which were put in place to assist the individual student to achieve this standard.

If the HT fails in this duty by not being able to demonstrate that appropriate steps were taken then the HT should be handed his arse on a plate with his P45 as a doily.

bulletpoint - Unless Bonsoir's cousin was on the management side of things, IT companies like IBM are getting a lot pickier these days and often demand Science degrees. I do have friends who climbed up preeeetty high in the IT route who have what seem like completely irrelevant degrees, but make sense in the grander scheme of things.

Although, I guess, a long time ago, American Studies would have helped you getting into an American corporation...

Russian but it would out where I used to live and I dont wish to do this for personal reasons. St Pauls (which is a fantastic school and one I know very very well) and Winchester have very similar results in fact up until last year Winchester sent more to oxbridge than St Pauls although Winchester boys generally have less UCAS points because they dont AS levels which I believe carry UCAS points and usually only do three Pre U's because they are harder than A levels.
The last time I looked at the top perfoming grammar although they had a higher % of A-B grades than Wincheser when it cames to A*s and Oxbridge entry Winchster beat them. Anyway its all menaingless as Ive said at least 2000 times its not all about exam results its the whole package.

Every single student should leave school able to demonstrably read, write and count.

That still shocks me - over a decade of free education and nothing to show for it. That is the prime reason not to throw even more money at schools... because that's not even the school's fault... that's something else!

Tasmania - i forgot to add, that was in in the 'good old days' during the IT boom, nowadays i agree you probably wont get in with that degree although Bonsoir's cousin may have been in a different field although working for IBM.

Tasmania, one of the problem I believe exist is that schools are encouraged to focus on headline stats. Following the rule that you are what you measure then schools identify which students will get a good fist full of GCSEs and damn the rest.

WTM - But... read... write... and count. I've learned the basic levels of each even before I entered school!!! I could possibly have left after primary school and have been quite good in each of those.

I do think that in those cases, it's not the school that is the problem. It's the HOME. And that's the real issue at hand. Because if everyone had motivated parents like there seem to be so many on this thread (regardless of our different opinions )... we may not have this problem.

^^ Just to add... an issue that school face these days is that they seem to be expected to do more and more of the parenting. If all of them were boarding, it might help, but they aren't...

The UK government's Department for Education reported in 2006 that 47% of school children left school at age 16 without having achieved a basic level in functional mathematics, and 42% fail to achieve a basic level of functional English. Every year, 100,000 pupils leave school functionally illiterate in the UK.

(above is from Wikipedia so not necessarily 100% accurate but I would guess that the order of numbers is about right)

This is not about home life IMO. This a a failure in education.

... so you don't think it's odd that those kids' parents never read a book with their kids or helped them with their homework? At least once - to notice that something is not right? Because I would think that's the least a parent can do.

If people in the developing world learn to read and write in far worse conditions... why is it that these people in the UK can't?

"If people in the developing world learn to read and write in far worse conditions... why is it that these people in the UK can't? "

Some (in the developing world) manage it, but some don't. So maybe it's not so much about conditions as about personality. If I were penniless I would read to my kids. But then, I can read. I am educated. I believe in education. If I couldn't read, and was surrounded by families who didn't value education, maybe I wouldn't see the point of it either. Or, maybe I just wouldn't want to admit to my kids that I couldn't do such a basic thing as reading.

Big companies/organisations are becoming intellectually lazy in their recruitment and will get found out.

Many of the biggest breakthroughs in IT, for example, were made by people who studied the Classics/Philosophy etc.

Many of our most progressive judges did not read Law at university.

Many of the top accountants did not read Accountancy at university.

The pendulum will swing back.