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Original poster

Would you be prepared to pay more tax to get better state education for all?

706 replies

happygardening · 26/02/2013 16:53

Any other suggestions welcome to ensure that all where ever they live and whatever their background have access to education of the highest quality.

OP posts:
Emphaticmaybe · 27/02/2013 19:48

Of course you have as much right as anyone else Emma but you can't expect everyone else to agree with you, (or not laugh)Grin

The grammar stuff is a cheap shot - not everyone went to Roedean. I went through my entire state secondary ed in the eighties and no one mentioned ellipsis once... what is it again?Grin

LineRunner · 27/02/2013 19:58

Also, Emma, what makes you think that others on this thread aren't from privileged backgrounds?

One can be from a privileged background and be a screaming leftie, you know. Grin

Indeed, what is privilege?

Original poster
happygardening · 27/02/2013 19:59

"Would you give that up for your son, if you could get a "good-ish" sort of state school instead, with less choice of sports and with extracurricular activities less likely built into the school day? Because that's the best you could ever hope for with funding in the state school system."
No of course I wouldn?t give it up but I just find it hard to accept that in many cases the alternative is so awful and nothing can be done about it. There must be a middle ground or preferably even better (but as I?m not a leftie utopian idealist I know I have to be realistic) between what my DS receives and what I understand from the radio this lunch time; 1/3 of state schools which are apparently not even mediocre.

OP posts:
Tasmania · 27/02/2013 19:59

@Emphaticmaybe

Working hard is a great trait, but if you are forever stuck in a WC frame of mind (i.e. this is my place, etc.) you'll just build up a brick wall in front of you. What I am getting at is that sort of attitude that was shown in that programme "Grammar Schools - A Secret History" , and escaped their past.

Most in the programme were from WC backgrounds, but many have well and truly left that behind, achieving great things in life. Some of them got into a grammar, and for many, this caused a massive rift within their families. Some parents were ridiculous - thinking their children were stepping above their ranks (oh, that' such a bad thing!), even hated the fact that they started speaking differently (more RP, I guess). The parents' attitude - that's what I would associate with a WC state of mind. And those parents still commonly exist in the here and now.

Those people benefitted from the existence of grammar schools, so they went on to do great things. Most people don't have access to such schools any longer, and although many may go on to uni, unlike those who benefitted from those schools a generation ago, they don't seem to be able to shake off the shackles of their past. They often tend to build an imaginary brick wall before them, not considering jobs they could possibly get, if they really wanted to. And it's like a communal psyche.

And apparently, no one ever excapes their "class".

I didn't grow up here, but I think such a state of mind will stop you from ever achieving your best.

Original poster
happygardening · 27/02/2013 20:02

Russian for a start Winchesterand others is not about results if I want good resuts I could probably achieve them for my DS2 at our excellent and highly rated and lets not forget free local comp.
I am curious to know which school your DC's go to with such fab results do PM me if you prefer.

OP posts:
LineRunner · 27/02/2013 20:02

I didn't grow up here

Clearly.

chickensarmpit · 27/02/2013 20:02

I would like to pay less tax if i am completely honest. We're taxed on our wages, then taxed on good we buy, not forgetting the bastard council tax!

I'm skint, my rent has been put up yet again as have all my other bill. So no more tax rises ffs!

The education system in this shit pit country should be great considering the amount of money the government take from us.

Tasmania · 27/02/2013 20:05

happy

The problem is that in many cases, it's the parents that need educating - not necessarily the kids. I know you can't slap a kid that misbehaves and disrupts everyone in a class these days... but can we please slap the parents and give them detention ad infinitum?!?

Original poster
happygardening · 27/02/2013 20:07

"if you are forever stuck in a WC frame of mind i.e. this is my place"
Plenty of MC are stuck in a frame of mind i.e. this is my place and thats ok I suppose. Is there anything wrong with being working class? Some of the most decent people I know are working class. It doesn't have to mean uneducated uncultured or unambitious.

OP posts:
Original poster
happygardening · 27/02/2013 20:10

Two of the most out of control children I have ever met came from families who were hereditary aristocracy. May be it?s the working class people I mix with but I find them much stricter with their children than I ever am with mine.

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bulletpoint · 27/02/2013 20:10

Why would DD1's state school want to copy Eton, Harrow, Roedean or Winchester when it gets better results than those schools?

Please which school does your dd go to?(not being sarcastic at all just curious] and academics is just one part of the equation what about all the other opportunities theses schools offer in terms, extra curriculars, sports, music, drama, building confidence etc does your state school excel in these as well ? Because if there is such a state school i'd like to know how they do it.

seeker · 27/02/2013 20:11

A side thought, thrown up by Tasmania's recent post. I would love to know what the social make up of grammar schools was in their hey day.

Certainly whenever the term "grammar school boy" is used in literature, it is usually slightly derogatory. Or if not actually derogatory, certainly the sort of person who would wear a brown suit. Slightly looked down on. Rather too hardworking and earnest. NQOT. Rather the way the Tory Grandees thought about Mrs T.

Tasmania · 27/02/2013 20:11

happygardening

Nothing wrong with being WC, but I'd rather not want to bring up my DC thinking that "my rank" is the highest she can ever be, and that she should never step over that line.

bulletpoint · 27/02/2013 20:12

Happy - please i just pm'd you if you get a chance.

Emphaticmaybe · 27/02/2013 20:13

I don't know Tasmania I think there are equal amounts of aspirational working-class families as the 'know your place' lot.

The thing with the grammar schools though is they helped the lucky few to achieve their potential but what about the secondary moderns - not so much. The grammar system is always harked on about as the best way to promote social mobility - but I actually see it as a form of social control almost like saying only the very brightest WC kids deserve to join the ranks of the elite - the rest of you know your place. Good quality comprehensives, that stream where necessary, I think are a better way of insuring no child gets left behind.

Original poster
happygardening · 27/02/2013 20:13

bullet I too am interested as far as was aware Westminster is usually the leading school in the UK no state school beats it.

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LineRunner · 27/02/2013 20:14

Possibly best then bring up DCs to know 'their worth'.

Actually I've usually found it's useless snobs that hide behind their rank to avoid change.

Bonsoir · 27/02/2013 20:14

My father has employed the same gardener/handy man for the past 15 years (one whole day a week). You could qualify him as being in a WC frame of mind. He has his own gardening/DIY business and doesn't live a life of luxury by any means, but is quite comfortable - has his own three-bedroomed detached house on the outskirts of a rural town, wife, children and grandchildren about whom he frets but all have jobs etc. He is a very nice man, but he isn't equipped and doesn't desire a job that isn't a manual job. There is nothing wrong with that and it is downright cruel (condescending) to suggest that hardworking people like that ought to "aspire to more".

Tasmania · 27/02/2013 20:15

Rather too hardworking and earnest.

And what's wrong about that?

Tasmania · 27/02/2013 20:16

Bonsoir

It is not about them. It is about them imposing their beliefs on their DCs - who may want to aspire to more.

seeker · 27/02/2013 20:17

Nothing. As I said, I was just musing on how grammar school boys are portrayed in literature. Could give you a reading list if you like.

Original poster
happygardening · 27/02/2013 20:17

"Nothing wrong with being WC, but I'd rather not want to bring up my DC thinking that "my rank" ... the highest she can ever be"
Again maybe its the working classes I've mixed with but none have ever said this is the highest they can ever be. I think it depedns how you define WC if its all about money then perhaps many of those I'm referring too would be classified as middle class although from very working class back grounds but if its something more suble than that then they probably would be described as working class.

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 27/02/2013 20:20

Tasmania - my father's gardener, like any reasonable parents, wants his DC to do the best they can aspire to! He's not holding anyone back - but he resents (and we know this, because my father and he are thick as thieves after 15 years of convivial pruning, hedge trimming, carpentry etc) anyone suggesting that he isn't doing the best he can and that his (very hard working) family isn't doing the best they can.

WorriedTeenMum · 27/02/2013 20:21

IMO it is sad that Britain has become stuck on using private education as the get out when state education fails. You see it a lot on MN. If someone expresses concern about the state schools in their area a poster will suggest looking at bursaries for private school.

I dont want to see private schools banned, I would like to see them redundant for the vast, vast majority of students.

Without a doubt schools need to be well funded but they also need to be well managed. This is where all too many schools seem to fall down. They have great teachers, but the HT is a lousy man manager and lacks organisational skills. Good management isnt really so much about paying HTs big bucks but investing in development for managers throughout schools.

Pay good teachers well. Dont force line management responsibility onto good teachers. Good teachers dont automatically make good managers and good managers are not automatically good teachers.

Tasmania · 27/02/2013 20:22

Bonsoir I thought your family was from France, no?