Why on earth would you go state if you could afford private?

[Schmedz]

This thread is for Maisie and happygardening . I like dares!

Seeker

Later on in the article, she attends the Open Day of her local comp for her son. And it did seem pretty dire. That does not mean that ALL comps are like the one she went to. But in her case, I just don't think she had much of a choice.

Five years ago, we were looking for a secondary school for my elder son. He?d attended a state primary and I can?t bear that hermetic white-London, private-school bubble, where kids from the estates are seen as chavs and muggers.

So at our local comprehensive?s open day, we listened to the head?s talk. He began by explaining how the school?s new CCTV cameras had reduced violent incidents. Then he moved on to school uniform, a polo shirt and a zip-up navy fleece, which looked like pupils were preparing for careers as paint-mixers at B&Q. It was designed not for smartness, he said, but to be as easy to enforce as possible. Only one piercing per ear was permitted, he added. This was before his perfunctory rundown of exam results. He cared about containing his pupils, not their success. I could feel every middle-class parent in the audience putting a black line through the school?s name.

I?ve met many alumni of bad comps who feel like me: I won?t let my kids scrabble to learn in an uninspiring school as we did.

I personally think the article was very well written.

happygardening

I think things that affected us quite a lot when growing up will stay with us for a while. It is the proverbial chip on ones shoulder.

Some show resentment for those who had it better, I think that Janice Turner - at least - did not deny her son what she herself would have wanted.

And if 'progressive mixed ability teaching' had reached Yorkshire, she would no doubt have been slagging off all comprehensives now because of the one school then. My children did go to comprehensives. I have no idea how the schools allocated the classes but they certainly weren't sorted out like that.

So she got a grammar school education in a comprehensive and she is still whinging?

LaVolcan

No - that is not it. It is difficult to drill down into this with few people having read the article it seems.

They were segregated, but as the teachers were largely the same, all bar one did not stretch the upper levels enough. They were happy that they were "working" while the lower sets may not have been doing as well.

When she went to university, she was left to fill the huge gap she had to fill.

Many on here defended teachers who were not as highly qualified in the subject matter they were teaching as their public school counterparts, saying that the teachers that might be right for naturally intelligent kids may be wrong for those who are closer to the bottom of the scale. This was often brought up by people whenever those threads of public schools having partnerships with lower achieving state schools pop up.

So if that's the case... how should the comprehensive system work, if you have the same teacher teaching all sets. Given the remarks previously spouted on here, you'd need completely different teachers...

No, I haven't read the article because it's behind the pay wall.

Perhaps I should try writing an article about my mediocre girls grammar school, where they didn't seem to know the meaning of the word stretch and sent droves of girls to teacher training college, regardless of any ambition or interest in teaching?

I give the local FE college the credit for my getting into university - now they really knew something about motivating and stretching people.

I suspect that her school very much reflected the spirit of the times. So much has changed since then, that you are no longer comparing like with like.

seeker, theoretically you can be in top set for one subject and set 6 for another. But how often does that happen in practise?

At our local 'outstanding' comp, which is a depressing school imo, and i have worked there, the setting system divides the naice middle class kids from the ones on the estate. In fact when I expressed some doubts about the school after a visit, soiem mums said, 'oh but by yr 8 it's fine because they never see the estate children, their sets are in a different part of the school.'
(btw I wasn't objecting to the school because of its social mix, but because of poor teaching I'd witnessed.)

I've never been to one of those comps people on here rave about, where everyone gets on with everyone else and stands an equal chance. All the ones I've visited/worked in and the one I went to (in the north thirty years ago admittedly) segregate by intellect and that segregation is hugely linked to social class. It's free of charge and it's under one roof. But it's still there.

There is no ideal school. That's why discussions about this subject matter draws such heated varied responses.

What I would want from the state system may not be what others want. It isn't just a choice between private v state. It is about 'what school is right for my child'.

You might find comps where the top set is stretched, but where the bottom will lack aspiration. You can also find the opposite, where the top is left to deal with things on their own, while teachers concentrate on getting the lower set to get them to pass, so that league table numbers look better. I'm yet to be convinced that a school that caters to the whole spectrum actually exists.

You will see loads of private school threads where people will say that e.g. Winchester may not be right for their son, but Rugby is. Now, those are two schools in the private sector... and even then, one may be a better fit than the other. From what I gather, at a state school, you often lose the freedom of choice.

For those who have money to spend, I believe that a great part of what they are buying is exactly that - choice. Yes, these schools will be selective, but it's not like in the state school system where you are at the mercy of postcode lottery. So you can go and look for a school that is right for your child.

As mentioned before, one of the schools I attended for a brief moment in time (and which is the one I liked most) was a US high school - which is basically a comp. However, postcode lottery meant that the school (which was in a very wealthy area) was much better equipped than many private schools over here and the intake were very well-behaved children of doctors and lawyers. Hollywood frequently uses that school in films/TV shows set in a US high school - and we all know that Hollywood does not often portray what is the 'norm'.

Racing heart, my experience in a comprehensive in the 90s, as well as my dds' today, is that the maths set 1 is often quite different from set 1 in other subjects. I remember some surprising faces!

However, having read that c&p bit from the woman who sent private.... Yeah. Polo shirts and fleeces.... There's really no getting past that, huh?

Polo shirts?

When we went round school 18 months ago when dd was year 6 they didn't mention exam results at all, come to think of it.

The grammar school I went to streamed on exam results from second year- it worked really well and you could be in the top set for one and the bottom set for another. And we all mixed with each other even if not in the same class. I think that works better than streaming so you are in the same division very every subject.

He cared about containing his pupils, not their success

I distrust the way this is sandwiched in the middle of apparently factual recollections, as though it were factual truth. I would be surprised if that was how the head himself considered his role, and would be wary of taking this woman's perception as objective fact.

Yeah. Polo shirts and fleeces.... There's really no getting past that, huh

Ehm... I actually get what she says. Or do people now want to get rid of suits being worn in the professional world, too? Like that person who suggested Oxbridge should get rid of all old buildings as it puts some state pupils off from applying...

Well the grammar school 6th formers round here wear jeans and uggs and do really well. They don't wear uniforms on continental europe. Why on earth should what they wear make any difference?

Oh and who said that about Oxford buildings? How bizarre. Obviously there are intangible barriers to people from disadvantaged backgrounds going to Oxford- and the hugely unfamiliar environment is one of them, but that's not a reason for getting rid of the buildings.

The uniform thing is a red herring in both directions."My dear those ghastly polo shirts!" and "Look at those ridiculous hats! And really? Tails? In Costa?????"

"They don't wear uniforms on continental europe. Why on earth should what they wear make any difference?"
The voice of sanity on the uniform debate!
Of course you cant compare your experiences from 30 years ago with now. In my occupation when I tell people what we did 30 years ago (well its actually 29 yrs ago when I started) people laugh. I have a duty as a professional to embrace research and change my working practices accordingly in fact failure to do so results in disciplinary proceeding being taken against me and even permanent exclusion from my profession. We've always done it this way is not an excuse. Is it fanciful to assume that teachers have the same obligations?
If not is this another reason many parents turn to the independent sector which is fast evolving to meet the wishes of its customers.

"If not is this another reason many parents turn to the independent sector which is fast evolving to meet the wishes of its customers."

Yes- I don't think your son has to wear a top hat any more, does he?

Thankfully not done away with in the early 70's I believe. I couldn't send my DC's to a school where they have to wonder around in tails, boaters or any other meaningless ridiculous uniform. We all have some principles we have to stick by.

DD4 wears a pretty pale blue polo shirt to her state primary where Years 3,4,5 and 6 are taught all in one class, no setting or high tables (indeed the cleverer ones are detailed to help out those who struggle with work, so are deliberately mixed). I think a pack of two cost about £5 from Sainsbury's or Tesco. Fabulous :)

As for the suggestion that Magdalen gets bulldozed, that was a not genuine suggestion in response to Elly Nowell saying she was intimidated by the buildings when she interviewed there for Law in December 2011. Mind you Elly was a sucker for punishment since she'd interviewed at, and been rejected from, Cambridge the previous year. As an alternative, less philistine approach, the Law dons made a suggestion that they could try interviewing in the civic car park nearby. So far that hasn't been implemented but interestingly there are far more students from the state sector reading Law at that college than there are public schoolers, so perhaps they think their warmer baronial hall interview venue doesn't actually especially deter.

Oops I thought indie school polos were being slagged off - I should have read previous posts :). Still, at £2.50, good to look at, comfortable to wear, what's not to like?

Clearly daft uniform doesn't clinch it on results, or Eton would win every time.

seeker surely not all the kids wear Uggs? Seriously? Oh dear.

Funny thing, this uniform business - the local independents did away with ties for girls a good few years ago, in favour of open necked blouses, whereas all the local comprehensives have adopted ties for girls as well as boys. One of the independents doesn't have blazers, two of them do. One of the comprehensives has blazers, two don't. All the boys wear ties, whether independent or comprehensive.

Umm, so what does that tell you?

I don't like ties for girls, professional women don't wear them so it seems odd to ask girls to. I prefer a more natural open necked blouse for girls.
Also I'd probably prefer blazers just for the summer. In the winter a proper coat seems more appropriate, and not easy to wear over their blazers (as is required in DD's school and many others) Fortunately we found a stylish black coat in a largeish size in the sales which has been good (Gap, I think)

Well, no. Dd wears Celtic Sheepskins