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Original poster

Nursery question

46 replies

Janstar · 15/01/2004 12:36

My ds aged 3 is still resisting toilet training. Some days he is fine but if he is tired or absorbed in doing something sometimes he just doesn't bother to say anything or take himself to the loo, and he does it in his pants.

I was warning the nursery assistant about this this morning and she told me that if he soils his pants in nursery they don't deal with it but would phone me to come and do it. She said they don't have the correct wash facilities.

Is this correct? If so I will have to make sure that I don't go far away when he is in nursery.

OP posts:
Marina · 15/01/2004 12:44

Um, from my experience this seems rather unreasonable Janstar. Children can have accidents well beyond the age of three and ds' nursery and his reception teacher would never have dreamt of doing this. Surely they'd never be off the phone if they really rang a parent every time a child soiled itself...?
It's possible they don't have the facilities to launder dirty pants but then as a parent I wouldn't expect them to. When ds did this he would be cleaned up, put into clean pants (which parents supplied in their peg-bags) and the dirty pants would be in a sealed plastic bag to be dealt with at home.
A three year old is old enough to feel humiliated if mummy is summoned, I'd have thought. This is making a big issue out of an unfortunate accident.
Is this a day nursery or a nursery school? Either way, her version of the nursery's policy sounds a bit draconian.

marialuisa · 15/01/2004 12:47

it's possible this is true. If he's "regular" and this time doesn't tie-in with nursery, he'll probably be fine. I don't know how long he's going to be there for but at DD's daycare and now school nursery they have a sort of "group opportunity" for going to toilet, so before going outside, before lunch etc. as well as the option of going when they want. I've noticed they tend to escort anyone who's fiddling or farting to the loo, just in case.

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 12:48

I don't know what the difference is between a day nursery and a nursery school. I am very ignorant in these matters.

OP posts:
Jimjams · 15/01/2004 12:48

There was a thread about this last week- under "other subjects" I think.

I agree totoally with Marina- I really cannot bear this "we don;t touch poo" attictude. Don't work with young children then. Grrrr.

LIZS · 15/01/2004 13:02

Janstar

It does sound a bit severe to me but then I had one occasion when I picked ds up from preschool and he was in pooey pants - noone had noticed

Loosely my interpretation of nursery school/day nursery would be -

Day Nursery is open for long day sessions ie 8 - 6, has sessions am/pm/lunchtime, team of carers and often takes babies to school age, plus some offer after school care.

Nursery School - more limited hours ie 9-12 or 1 - 4, takes children from a certain age ie 2.5/3, clean/dry, run by fewer individuals, perhaps more structured timetable.

In a day nursery I would expect them to be more flexible at changing nappies/dirty clothes but anyone who works with small children has to be prepared for the odd accident and deal with it matter of factedly. ds was like your ds and would forget if busy but dd hasn't yet pooed at playgroup.

marialuisa · 15/01/2004 13:03

Day nursery is 8-6, take them from babies. Nursery school is usually 2 years up and they expect them to be potty-trained. jimJams and I disagreed quite strongly on this on the thread last week, so I'll leave it there.

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 13:09

Thanks for clarifying that. It is a nursery school in that case.

They never minded changing nappies when ds was still in them. Does anyone know legal/health and safety reasons why they can change nappies but can't change wet or soiled clothes?

The assistant said that they are not really supposed to change even wet pants but they do it. Soiled ones are just out of the question.

OP posts:
LIZS · 15/01/2004 13:14

Find that even more bizarre then.

alibubbles · 15/01/2004 13:16

Janstar, where is this, in BW?

Marina · 15/01/2004 13:16

Janstar, I think you really need to talk to the head in that case.
It's pretty reasonable to expect children to be potty-trained at three, I'd say, because the majority are. But accidents still happen and at your ds' age they will be sensitive about it. I wonder if for whatever reason the person you spoke to is confusing the policy of expecting children to be clean and dry with giving out her own interpretation of what happens if there is an accident.
I would fully expect to come and fetch my child if he was suffering from a stomach upset. But I'd be astounded to be called away (from work, an hour's commute away, as it happens) to change ds' pants on the very rare occasion he had an accident. And ds would have been mortified, which is still the main issue for me here - the impact on the child.
Suppose you weren't at home. Would your child be left to fester in dirty pants until you were reached and were able to get to school? How awful.

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 13:20

Yes, Marina, that is what I am worried about. What if I am in Asda, or miles away visiting a friend? Will they just leave him sitting in poo till it's time to go home?

Yes, Alibubbles, it's in BW. You probably know the one. Begins with a C.

OP posts:
Batters · 15/01/2004 13:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 13:50

I am pretty sure that if I went to the woman who runs it she would say the same thing. Other people, including my childminder, had told me in the past that they wouldn't change dirty pants there and my childminder actually knew someone who had been telephoned to go and change her child. However, I didn't really take much notice until this was actually said to me this morning.

I'm still wondering what the law is on this if anyone out there knows?

OP posts:
Slinky · 15/01/2004 14:29

I find this really bizarre!

I work in a day nursery in the "2-3s" room so see this most days It goes without saying that we change them without fuss and although we obviously can't spend time washing their pants, we do "clean" as much off as poss. then placing in nappy sacks and into carrier bags for taking home (sorry for graphic description )

I don't understand why they can change nappies, but not underwear - in my mind it doesn't make much difference.

nutcracker · 15/01/2004 14:38

I think it's awful, like someone else said "don't work with children then" .
I used to be a childminder and looked after a 4 yr old boy who had problems with doing a poo( there is a name for this, but i can't remember what) he used to get in a right mess. His mom warned me about this before i agreed to take him on and said she would understand if i didn't want to mind him. He did have quite a few accidents or would make it to the bathroom in time but make one hell of a mess round the toilet or floor. I didn't like having to clean him up but i certainly wouldn't of left him sitting in it.

Talking of poo and policies.. Will a school help a child wipe there bum when they've done a poo ???? My dd2 starts school in sept and atm will not wipe her bum after a poo for all the sweets in the world, and she gets quite sressed and upset if you ask her to.

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 14:44

The implication seemed to be that they don't have the right facilities for cleaning up after a poo accident. But if they called me in to do it I would be using the same facilities anyway.

I have to collect him at 3 and I am going to ask for more of an explanation about this.

It seems a little pointless to have childcare if I don't dare leave the village.

OP posts:
Jimjams · 15/01/2004 14:52

nutcracker - most schools won't, although they certainly help my son- so it can be worth asking.

I agree with everything said here. To declare that children have to be toilet trained to attend a session is one thing- and I can understand the reaosns behind that- but to leave a child sitting in a mess after an accident is disgusting, degrading, humuliliating etc etc. If nurses left their granny sitting in a mess on a geriatric ward they would be horrified. If young children are in the "care" of a nursery- then they should "care" for them. I worry about these places- tbh. How can they think its acceptable to leave a child sitting in poo. What do they do if a child throws up- leave them in it to spread to everyone else?

Janstar the law on this is probably a bit grey. If as part of a disability a child wasn't toilet trained then I think places would have to take them. AFAI understand the DDA - you cannot refuse a child a place for a disability. It would seem ludricrous that they then wouldn't take a normally developing child who has accidents.

DS1 has recently started reception. I know a number of the children in his class have accidents- I've spoken to his teacher about it. They don't bat an eyelid, and whenever they go out of class they ensure they have changes of clothes with them. If a mainstream reception class can cope with it - then a nursery should be able to.

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 15:31

Well, I've just got back from nursery, and loaded my son's trousers, pants, spare trousers, spare pants, socks, spare socks and jumper into the washing machine. He is wearing borrowed ones.

I asked about what would happen if I was not available to come and clean him up in the event of a poo. They said that if I was too far away they would deal with it. Then the leader tried to explain using hand signals. 'We wouldn't (hand wiggle) like you do, but we would (different hand wiggle), if you see what I mean.' I confessed I didn't. She said, 'We'd deal with it, don't worry.'

I get the impression that they actually would deal with it but that they want you to think they wouldn't so that you will not pretend not to be around if you can come and fix it yourself.

I was told that they would get into trouble for handling all the mess and then touching other children.

I'm feeling maybe the best thing would be to put ds into pull-ups since he clearly isn't interested either. The whole thing is really depressing me. He is 3 yrs and 3 months and has been able to control his functions for over 6 months but just cannot be a**ed to do it.

This is the thing that makes me really depressed and annoyed with him. I know I shouldn't make a big deal of it with him but it is my pet hate. It is getting me down so much I am in tears at the moment.

OP posts:
Angeliz · 15/01/2004 15:46

Janstar all the hand waggling sounds mad.
It seems a bit daft that they can't even talk about it like adults and as others have said, it would make a little accident into a major event for your son! As for the dealing with other kids, surely they could wear gloves and/or wash their hands thoroughly! Good luck and i hope it gets better++

katierocket · 15/01/2004 15:51

oh janstar - poor you. What does your DS say about it when you ask him?

Jimjams · 15/01/2004 15:53

????? err wouldn't they wear gloves/wash hands?????? what a pile of cack.

Don't let it get you down- I mean this is the nicest way- it honestly isn't a big deal. Most of the parents I know with SN kids take ages to get round to proper toilet training precisely because it is such a tiny problem (especially if pull ups are available). And then when we do get the day time stuff sorted out we take years to get round to night training- again as it just isn't a big deal. That's been my experience anyway. Don't mean that in a "what have you got to worry about way"- just trying to reassure you that its nothing to worry about. It's the attitude of the nursery that is wrong- not you or your son.

He'll get there. My son went from not remotely toilet trained to toilet trained pretty much overnight

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 16:05

Thanks so much. I know it shouldn't be a big deal but it is to me. I feel like pouring the wine (at 4pm!!) or just going out and leaving them to it. Neither of which is an option!

Perhaps I was just lucky my dds were not too much trouble to toilet train or maybe it's because I'm a lot older now and haven't got the patience.

I guess I will have to put him in pull-ups but it does feel like a defeat after dh spent two solid weeks patiently cleaning up every accident over Christmas. I feel I am letting him down.

OP posts:
sunchowder · 15/01/2004 16:09

Oh Janstar, just saw this thread. So sorry for your upset on this, I know the helpless/angry feeling. I would go with the pull-ups (I know they are expensive) and send in a bag of clothes anyway labeled for him in case anything happens again. They know you have made the best effort today by responding to their call to come and get him. You will not be placed in with the Mom's who might take "advantage" of them and "expect" them to clean up. You should not feel that you can't leave the village...

Original poster
Janstar · 15/01/2004 16:11

They didn't phone me to come and get him, Sunny. He didn't do a poo, he wet himself twice and they dealt with it. It was at the end of the day we had that conversation.

OP posts:
sunchowder · 15/01/2004 16:17

Oh...I misunderstood....still...I think you are doing the right thing with the pull ups, even if you feel a bit defeated...it will be better for his self-esteem at school I think anyway. He won't have to wear them at home, just at school yes? So you are only half-defeated? Is there a bright side?

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