If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

.

Im very reluctant to completely out myself. I doubt any one in my profession has a degree in the same subject so therefore anyone I work with including the parents/children who have put up with politely listened to me evangelising about what a wonderful subject it is not forgetting those I helped with their GCSE/A levels work in the subject would know who I am.
Most people are frankly bemused that a mature student would chose this subject for a reason I fail to understand the common comment being "what on earth made you chose ....... ! Its no different from choosing biology English or maths as far as I can see.

oooh creamteas you have a thread-stalker!

Since we know creamteas is an admissions tutor, it is interesting to know what she has written previously about personal statements. And - bingo

Bonsoir only teasing - it is Friday. Of course people write different things depending on the context of the thread - I believe you recently wrote that you were spending considerably more on your dd's education than your ds' as you had decded dd would be a sahm and need more talents to make money, while ds would just be a regular wage slave - no sahd option nonsense for them! All this, and the earlier comments re your dealings on their behalf with UCAS does sound a leeetle bit over thinking/controlling of your DC futures for them...

How is it over controlling to inform your DCs of HE opportunities? What an odd idea.

Oh, and you have not read my post correctly - I have only ever had professional dealings with UCAS - nothing whatsoever to do with my own DCs (or anyone else's particular DC).

'You should try it fivecandles - most instructive!'

You silly, silly patronising woman.

I WORK in a private school. I have already said that. I have worked in many different schools in the state sector for 15 years including as a consultant. I now work at management level in a particular private school and have also a great deal of experience of private schools.

And I repeat that top of the list of attractions for most parents who opt for private education is NOT innovation and is likely to be the opposite. Several other teachers and parents on this thread have also said this. Several other parents and teachers have said that they chose the private sector precisely to get away from the constant need for 'innovation' in state education.

Now, once again, I'll spell out that I am not using 'tradition' pejoratively. Many parents and teachers value tradition not just in the sense of old school ties and status (although this IS a big deal for many) but in terms of rigour and high expectations and so on.

Latin, hymns etc are the very opposite of innovation but they are at the heart of many private schools (and some would say they are all the better for it).

fivecandles The bottom line is that Eton and other similar institutions costs £33 000 + pa lets be generous and assume 20% are on generous bursaries but on their website they state that most only receive 50% let also assume that many will have more than 1 child there or an A N Other school with similar fees. So most are cheerfully stimping up at least £70 000 a year (if you include extras) in school fees. The number of people who have this kind of money is very small most will be city lawyers banker etc and therefore its likely that most will be planning and undoubtedly expected to follow in the family occupation or something very similar.
Im not commenting on the morality of this but just stating facts. I do doubt that most of these parents are paying for tradition most earning this kind of money work in a dog eat dog world they are hoping that their DC's will emerge from these kind of schools able to take on our fast evolving highly competitive world.

Bonsoir I don't think Penelope has said anything that many teachers didn't already know about personal statements. There have been innumerable articles published in national newspapers to this effect. I do agree with you though that it seems a nonsense to make students jump through this particular hoop when it's either ignored or misused.

It's well known that many teachers/parents write the damned things anyway or they're cribbed off the Internet and it's also well known that privileged kids will have the edge because they're more likely to have interesting hobbies, work experience etc, etc. SO why don't we ban the things.

"I do doubt that most of these parents are paying for tradition most earning this kind of money work in a dog eat dog world they are hoping that their DC's will emerge from these kind of schools able to take on our fast evolving highly competitive world."

Exactly, happygardening.

But happy, I work in a school which is very far from Eton geographically and in ethos and fees yet parents still value and pay for tradition rather than innovation (even if it means taking 2 jobs, 2 or 3 kids sharing a bedroom etc etc. I chose Eton as an extreme example but it's a sliding scale of what many are buying into when they pay for private school. As I say, I'm not using tradition in a pejorative sense. Many teachers who have or do work in the state sector dream of having less innovation and more old-fashioned teaching and learning. It was certainly a big draw for me.

fivecandles I haven't established what you mean by tradition or for that natter what I mean. If by tradition you mean "rigour and high expectations and so on." then I agree that is what people pay for I also suspect that many on this thread will be quite indignant post endlessly stating that is not the sole preserve of the independent sector. If by tradition you mean and Latin, hymns funny uniform and meaningless ritual I suspect many parents are ambivalent about these (not the Latin) and this is not their main motivation for forking out £33 000 pa to send Caspar to Eton

'I do doubt that most of these parents are paying for tradition '

I think you are mistaken about this too. Such people know the value of reputation and tradition which if it comes from Eton is probably considered much more important than what is learned academically or qualifications. That's why people flock to Eton from all over the world. Likewise Oxford and Cambridge.

"Innovation" is not constant tinkering with the curriculum or overnight 180° turns on teaching practice or changes in ideology. Innovation is about making and implementing lasting positive change, which is what small private-sector enterprises are good at in all sectors and why SMEs are so very important to our economy.

Oh come on now. Oxford and Cambridge don't battle for spots at the top of the international university league tables because they are traditional. Look at the criteria the league tables use - where is "adherence to tradition"? Absolutely nowhere.

'If by tradition you mean and Latin, hymns funny uniform and meaningless ritual I suspect many parents are ambivalent about these (not the Latin)'

Oh, you'd be surprised. And this is the thing about the arguments of people like Bonsoir. One might make all sorts of perfectly reasonable assumptions about what people value in education but British culture is not always about what is right or what works. We are still a country that is bound by hierarchy and class differences. I'm telling you the parents absolutely love the funny uniform. They love the fact that their kids look special and different from the kids at the comp down the road. They love that their kids sing hymns and learn Latin. That is very often what they pay for.

fivecandles I suspect those sending their children to Eton have a completely different motivation to those who send their children to your school this is the nature of the beasts.
Im personally am not against innovation in any sector providing the changes are for the better and in fact believe I am innovative in my job. I would be concerned if a school was not moving with the times whether I was paying or not becasue I personally don't believe that we can afford to stand still. I want my DS's to see innovatioon in action beleive in it and carry it on onto thier lives. I also worry that tradition can be another word for stuck in a rut and frightened of challenges and change. We loved St Pauls becasue it so obviously was innovative and moving with he times devoid of meaningless ritual and ridiculous uniforms.

fivecandles - we live in 2013. There are international league tables of education. Parents who pay school fees are, in their vast majority, active participants in the global economy and want to do their damnedest to ensure their children follow in their footsteps. You are just wrong about tradition - the only people interested in tradition in education are misguided fools (some of whom may have inheritances to pay fees).

Well, I think there's both the sorts of innovation you describe in the state sector - the good and the bloody-well-just-stop-changing-things-for-the-sake-of-it-and-let-us-get-on-with-it.

I think there's very little innovation in private schools. That is not by and large their attraction and it is not why they are successful. They are successful because they select and exclude, high expectations, supportive parents etc, etc.

' suspect those sending their children to Eton have a completely different motivation to those who send their children to your school this is the nature of the beasts. '

I disagree. Same motivation; different scales.

You do realise there is no future in that tradition business, fivecandles? None at all. What reasonable person wants their child to attend the Museum of British Education rather than a forward-thinking school that prepares them for real life in the future?

"I'm telling you the parents absolutely love the funny uniform. They love the fact that their kids look special and different from the kids at the comp down the road. They love that their kids sing hymns and learn Latin. That is very often what they pay for."
Maybe Im in a minority of 1 but I can categorically assure you that I am not working to pay for all that rubbish. I have absolutely no desire for my DS to look special and different from the children at the comp down the road.

There is a very small minority of very silly parents with nothing useful to do at my DD's school in Paris that regularly wants to introduce uniform (there is currently a dress colour code). They get all excited about it and Hatch A Plan but it never goes anywhere - the 98% of parents who are modern and sensible do not want to complicate their lives with meaningless costumes.

'Look at the criteria the league tables use - where is "adherence to tradition"? Absolutely nowhere.'

You're very naive, Bonsoir. It's absolutely everywhere even if it's not in the league tables. And I've taught kids who haven't chosen Oxbridge because their courses are so traditional. They don't offer the sort of combinations or flexibility that you'd get at many universities.

I agree with fivecandles about the tradition thing.

One of the draws for me, of private school, was that the good things from the past were kept, no inovation for inovation's sake. These good traditional ideas include, imo ( and this is just my personal opinion) : high expectations of pupil's abilities, no lowering the standard to lowest common denominator, old fashioned teaching with a teacher in front of the class, some " modern" group projects and research as well though, respect for teachers, a quiet classroom where kids can concentrate instead of everyone getting up and wandering around and chatting ( this was the learning environment in their old state school which did nt work for my oldest DS with SEN), focus on traditional subjects with emphasis on science, kids are expected to read a lot, maths basics are drilled ( time tables known back to front by Y3) so a solid basis for maths is established...etc etc.