If you can afford private education but remain in the state sector...

[TheseJeansHaveShrunk]

It's going to be hard to avoid this becoming another state v private thread, but what I'm interested in is a slightly different take on that debate. It's not "which is better?" but "if you think state school is better even though you could afford private education, then why is that?"

The question is based on the assumptions that the DC in question is/are reasonably bright (so might benefit academically from academically selective education), that the state school is non-selective (as most people don't have access to grammar schools), and that you hope for your DC to go to a good university (to make the £££££ fees worthwhile!)

I've been mulling this over ever since I heard some maths professor from Cambridge talking on the radio about the age-old private v state inequality of Oxbridge admissions. He was all for improving access for state school applicants but said that the simple fact was that for maths, even the best state schools generally teach only to the A-level syllabus, whereas the best private schools take their maths/further maths A-level candidates well beyond the syllabus and so the state school applicants are at a huge disadvantage - they simply don't have the starting level of knowledge required for the course.

This made me wonder: with this sort of unequal playing field, if you have the choice of private education, what reasons might you have not to take it?

Would be interested to hear from those who've made this choice - how it's working out, or if your DC have finished school now, how did it work out? Did they go to good universities/get good jobs, etc? On the other side of things, if you paid for private schooling but now regret it, why?

My DC go to a state school by the way.

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If you do Eng Lit you have to start with early medieval literature. You have to wear your academic gowns when sitting your exam.

Chandon - why are any of the things you cite "traditional"? They don't represent tradition - they represent good modern teaching and management practice.

fivecandles Im really and genuinely interested in your points about tradition over innovation. Years ago one of my DS's was at a hideous little prep one parent on hearing the uniform was changing was concerned her children would not stand out from their state contemporaries when she was shopping in Sainsbury's. Frankly I thought she was joking are these people real and even if you do think like this do you voice these concerns for God sake? Do you think this lack of innovation applies to all independent schools or just the vast majority. Is this how most independent schools have to market themselves these days?

"If you do Eng Lit you have to start with early medieval literature. You have to wear your academic gowns when sitting your exam.'
I've nothing against Mediaeval lit. but who wears a gown? The pupils at your school? What difference does this make to your ability ti answer the questions?

I remember once starting a thread about the particularly batty uniform worn by the poor unfortunate pupils at a prep school near my mum's house- and was inundated by posts saying how sweet and individual it was, and how posters loved their children's mustard pantaloons and vermilion stocking tops...So, happygardening, I am afraid that for prep at least, deep down, some parents are very shallow!

Chandon, I can't imagine that there is a school in the country in any sector not striving towards most of the "traditional values" you attribute solely to the private sector. With the possibly exception of places like Summerhill and Perry Court........

At St Pauls 55% got A's in their A levels and 88% got A/A grades and 40+% went onto Oxbridge. Not a gown in sight in fact no uniform at all in the 6th form most looked like scruffy university student matching the university campus feel of the school as they say results speak for themselves!

Bonsoir, I guess I see it as traditional as it is a set up my generation, or my mum and even grandmother, would recognise. I am always impressed by my parents' generations' general knowledge, problem solving- and deductive mentality.

Parents pay through the nose at Eton precisely for tradition: ridiculously old-fashioned uniform, Latin and Greek, sportsmanship, hymns and so on.

Lots of them do. But equally there are lots of dynamic parents there who recognise that Eton is much, much better than other private schools in many respects.

If it suits your child's personality, it's superb, and that's not about sportsmanship and hymns, but more about the opportunity, the access to the best that they provide in every aspect of the curriculum and outside it too, and which is absent in some or all areas at most schools. Eton has superb drama, music, teaching, design + technology, art, sporting achievement, debating, and so on.

The fact is that a typical private school doesn't compare. At some schools sport might be excellent but there are no Oxbridge boys at all. Others might do drama well, but the facilities are unlikely to be the equal of Eton's, and likewise with music.

We realised after visiting Eton that we wouldn't settle for mediocre, and while my DS hasn't applied to Eton, we did take the decision that we wouldn't send him somewhere that fails to match it academically (because that is my son's strength), even if we were perhaps less concerned about say, his building a submarine or a fully working car (some of the activities going on at Eton when we visited).

"I can't imagine that there is a school in the country in any sector not striving towards most of the "traditional values" you attribute solely to the private sector."
Told you fivecandles.
Seeker I sadly know a little about Perry Court and Steiner ed I suspect the parents are hoping that traditional values of tolerance decency and kindness will be nurtured in their children.

I think problem solving and deductive ability improve hugely with age - it may not just be their education!

Well, unless things have changed since my day, all these innovative pupils from Westminster and St Pauls are going to have to wear gowns for their exams at Oxford...

In fact, I get the impression absolutely every day that UK plc is trying to work out how it can retain its upper class "traditions" whilst simulteneously being "innovative." To claim private schools try to be one or the other, rather than trying desperately to be a bit of both at the same time seems to be a bit disingenuous if you ask me.

"Seeker I sadly know a little about Perry Court and Steiner ed I suspect the parents are hoping that traditional values of tolerance decency and kindness will be nurtured in their children."

Hmm- in my experience they are sadly deluded in this as in other things!

I also doubt that there are many investment bankers/city solicitors emerging from Perry Court and its ilk. In fact as most I suspect leave not being a chip off the old block and are more likely to go on in the future and attempt to contribute something meaningful back to society. The parents are completely barking (wheres the understatement smiley) but we found the children were well grounded articulate and thoughtful with definite concern for our world and society.

Clearly, in any event, there is no point using the terms "traditional" and "innovative" when everyone on this thread has a different idea of their meaning.

Is it sad to be a deluded optimist?

seeker Im not sure about that Perry Court as you may know is not a very Steiner Steiner school but those we've met from the one in East Grinstead (cant remember its name) both staff and children and a couple of London Steiner schools were very hot on traditional ideas of decency tolerance and kindness. Believe it or not (I am very aware that Im not a typical Perry Court parent) Im not completely against it there is a lot of rubbish in its philosophy but there is also some good stuff in amongst the crap.

If you had a choice between only two outcomes, would you rather your child grew up to be a deluded optimist or a cynical exploiter? Discuss.

'"I can't imagine that there is a school in the country in any sector not striving towards most of the "traditional values" you attribute solely to the private sector."

Many state schools and teachers have a good old snigger at the uniforms and the hymns and the Latin and so on but as I say they probably dream about not having to change everything on the whim of the Govt or headteacher and they would like the sort of parental support and to be able to demand the amounts of homework etc.

Rabbit no its not many parents at Steiner schools ( although as i said maybe not Perry Court) have fully signed up to the idea of their off sporing being kind compassionate individuals who respect difference in all and Steiner can very very much promote and indeed develop this view in the individual.

Bonsoir I am not confused at all. As I have repeatably said, we do not use PS for standard applications. - where they have standard qualifications and the right grades

We do use PS for non-standard applications and this includes the ones which do have not have our standard entry grades

Go on fivecandles make my day by telling me why they wear gowns when doing exams?

I think most of us do share the same understanding of 'traditional' and 'innovative'. I think that Bonsoir is slightly out of kilter on this as with several other things to do with the British education system. Understandable given she's in France where there are less, or at least different, nuances of social class. It is well known that people in this country use code and say one thing and mean another. Gove's Ebacc, supposedly, an 'innovation' is actually an exercise in nostalgia harking back to the ideals of private schools but trying to impose them on the comprehensive system. So ICT is bad but Latin is good. Art is bad but history is good.

It's virtually impossible to explain the way social class works to perpetuate advantages and exclude outsiders. The way those in the know say 'Maudlin college' instead of Magdalen, the way those in the know admire 'business' but not 'business studies' and 'law' but would never study law at A Level and not even at university. There are so many unwritten rules but you it's really difficult to explain these to kids without feeling as though you're buying into them when really you might want to challenge them.

Don't have to wear gowns at my school (well teachers do on special occasions) but you do have to wear them for exams at Ox and Camb. Why? Same reason for the ridiculous uniforms at Eton and boaters and hockey sticks at independnet girls' schools and Latin and on and on. Tradition and class. Makes them special. Perpetuates the club.

And the gowns fivecanldes?
seeker at least there's no outdated ridiculous uniforms in Steiner schools not many traditional hymns either but plenty of Mediaeval madrigals in the candle light which I have to confess were rather lovely.