Is banning private schools a workable solution?

[APMF]

Whenever the conversation turns to bias in favour of privately educated people there are always voices that shouts out - ban private schools!

Is this a badly thought out knee jerk reaction or am I missing something?

IMO if private schools were to be banned the following would happen.

a) the rich would educate their kids abroad. Aged 18 those kids will be back to grab those coveted uni places and, on graduating, the top jobs. So no change there.

b) some will choose to buy up the properties around the highly regarded state schools. Thus driving up prices and nudging aside your untutored DC which is what is happening in parts of London

c) Some will take the fees saved and hire tutors in order to give their dcs an advantage.

d) x thousands of kids will rejoin the state system thus busting an already over stretched system. Tax increases for everybody to pay for the extra resources and if you thought that it was hard getting into your over subscribed comp at the moment ......

As I said above, is banning private schools a badly thought out solution or am I missing something?

What is disastrous about free schools? ( not being deliberately obtise, just maybe a bit optimistic by nature)

Free schools don't sound like a solution to me. Lots of them are religious. Discrimination based on faith in state schools is hardly going to lead to a more equal society.

As if there weren't already enough faith schools - way out of proportion to the churchgoing population. Their discriminatory admissions policies were what led us to send DD to a private primary.

Private schools are far more prominent in this country than elsewhere. Eg we have German friends. They don't go through all the angst about whether they can afford private school - very few people even think of sending their children to private school. Nor do they seem to get too badly hung up over whether their child gets into the top tier of state school or not. In many countries private schools are surely a tiny percentage, geared either at the special needs child or at the super-rich. In this country they are used by a substantial minority and aspired to by others, specifically to get their child ahead (generally).
NB it is now recognised that state school educated children tend to cope better at university, because they have been less spoon-fed. This is used to justify requiring slightly lower grades of state school applicants.

Dromedary, think it's state school pupils with high grades at A-level that do v well at university (like me ), not state pupils vs private as a whole group.

Do they have as many faith schools in germany?

Dromedary - do you have any evidence or references to support that? I don't mean this in an unpleasant way, just that I would be curious to see it.

@Dromesday - Private school kids are spoonfed unlike state school kids? I be interested to hear the source of this conclusion.

My DC typically spends about 2 hours each evening preparing for his lessons. This homework is then used as the basis for class room discussions. This model is similar to the tutorial system used by universities to teach their undergrads.

So you can perhaps understand my amusement when I read your spoon feeding comment.

I don't have the reference - sorry - but from memory was told this by someone who specialises in the recruitment of school leavers to universities. I think it's fairly well known research. Yes, I think it does apply to those who do well enough to go to university. To get a B grade from a sink school is a fantastic achievement. To get an A* grade from a good private school is no great shakes.

I've done a quick search, and here is the link:
www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/03/state-school-pupils-university
According to this a university student who was at state school and has the same grades as a student who was at private or grammar is likely to do better at university, because the private etc student was stretched to their full potential at school, and the state school student wasn't, and has untapped potential that can now be tapped.
Not quite what I'd remembered, but now you have it.

Wouldent banning them mean increase in home education?

A lot parents here forced into private as

no school place

school offered 2 dire in educational standards/cxhild safety

hard to get to miles away from home.

Surly rather than ban state should work with them?

But hard when state has to follow nc and private does not.

I havent been private, or send dd private

but have freinds who do and its considere all round education with competative sports, music , trips, clubs.
for working parents hours are more child freindly than state.

The issue here is the patchyness of state provision

not banning private schools.

If the issue is patchiness of state provision, then what is causing that???? And does it have any link to the most proactive parents being able, proactively, to avoid the state options rather than do something very proactive to make them improve?

Maybe if more proactive people went into Local Government and education services...

Hearts - I am still fascinated by your ideological opposition to private schools yet you teach in one and your children go to one.

Don't worry though, many Labour Politicians and Guardian readers have the same dilemma.

tell that to people of bristol

Bristol comes 107th out of 150 local authorities in a league table of secondary schools throughout the country produced by the Government's education watchdog. This compares with Bath & North East Somerset schools, which ranks 16th and where 90 per cent of pupils are most likely to attend good or outstanding schools.

In primaries, Bristol comes 136th out of 152, with only 58 per cent of pupils attending schools rated as good or outstanding by Ofsted.

South Gloucestershire comes 30th with 78 per cent, B&NES is ranked 35th with 77 per cent and North Somerset comes 116th with 62 per cent.

combined with serious shortage of primary places.

its no wonder the private schools do so well.

I dont know how you standaradise as each lea runs its on area with vastly different results.

bristol has silly amount of academies now too.The only ones tnat do well are the ones who did well before converting.

If the issue is patchiness of state provision, then what is causing that???? And does it have any link to the most proactive parents being able, proactively, to avoid the state options rather than do something very proactive to make them improve?

Sooo! The patchy/sorry state of state provision is actually the fault of the 7% private schooling parents........ we are the missing link! If we returned...prodigal children that we are, everything wrong in the state sector will be fixed! Wao, i didn't realise we had such power

I agree with your point about how a grade B from a sink school is equal to an A from a selective school.

But I do disagree with the spoonfed comment. As I said above, DC's school uses a teaching model similar to that found at universities. Hardly spoon feeding.

Having said that, DC will be taught how to take the Oxbridge aptitude test, how to handle the interview, what 'boxes' to tick cb-wise etc In that respect, yes they will be spoonfed.

People keep holding up examples of 'dim' private school boys at Oxbridge like there are no 'dim' state school kids there [rolls eyes]. There are lots of people out there who peak at A levels and come out with a Third. Lots of people who are academically clever but lacking in common sense. It's not unique to privately educated students.

The 7% figure s irrelevant. You need to look at numbers of children getting high grades in three academic A levels if you are comparing entry to university (if interested in the university end of things). 33% of those getting AAA are not in the state sector.

Here are some interesting stats I think.
www.ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/facts_and_figures/undergraduate_admissions_statistics/school_type.html

Success rates by school type almost the same for grammar and independent.

I don't know what the answer is, but perhaps some detailed and up to date facts will help....or perhaps will spoil the fun.

The trouble is, dromedary, that other studies by Cambridge university have shown that degree outcomes are strongly correlated to A level UMS score achieved and that the type of school (state, private or grammar) it was achieved at doesn't matter (ie the opposite of what your study found). It may be that the Cambridge research only applies to top universities due to some ceiling effects, but you do have to be careful with statistics.

Proactive parents avoid poorer schools by all sorts of methods without going private- making sure they are in catchment for a good school, attending the right church enough times, making sure they're prepared for 11+.

Politicians seem to favour the second of those three.

Link to the Cambridge findings here

Key point:

Given the same examination record at point of admission, students from the state and independent sectors have been equally likely to perform well in Cambridge

What magical powers do people think I and the Sisterhood of Pushy Parents possess?

I mean, according to some people, if we pushy parents were made to return to the non-selective fold everything would be fine at their school.

The HM and his/her team will fear us and consequently offer a better service. Failing teachers will be driven out. The other kids will now have academic kids as role models and consequently discover a love of learning.

Is this what people seriously think is going to happen?

I would imagine that if private schools were abolished, the existing parents would promptly set up a Free school and carry on with the same teachers and ethos but with a lovely chunk of state funding. Entry criteria would doubtless have siblings at the top and then they'd find some other way to screen the input

It's not what happened at my school APMF or at dh's.

Dh was told not to aspire to the career he is now successfully working in as kids from his area don't do that they go to work in a pot bank instead

I ended up buying my own textbooks (only possible if you have money & parents that care) and self taught myself to fill-in huge gaps in the gcse syllabus.

I dont understand why so many ideologically people hate private schools.

The fact a child goes to a private school does no harm at all to a child in a state school. It takes no resources away from the child in the state school if my children go private.

What is the real reason people object to private schools?

Its illogical. Its like objecting to people who drive cars because you cant afford one and have to go on the bus.

I dont have a car though but my DSs go to private school. I may be the only parent in the UK in that cateogory.

Its human nature, Beta. People tend to be envious. A few people (I'm not meaning anyone on this thread) may also have a subtext of guilt if they've not done their utmost to enable their child to have the best education possible for them.