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Original poster

Is banning private schools a workable solution?

286 replies

APMF · 04/12/2012 17:43

Whenever the conversation turns to bias in favour of privately educated people there are always voices that shouts out - ban private schools!

Is this a badly thought out knee jerk reaction or am I missing something?

IMO if private schools were to be banned the following would happen.

a) the rich would educate their kids abroad. Aged 18 those kids will be back to grab those coveted uni places and, on graduating, the top jobs. So no change there.

b) some will choose to buy up the properties around the highly regarded state schools. Thus driving up prices and nudging aside your untutored DC which is what is happening in parts of London

c) Some will take the fees saved and hire tutors in order to give their dcs an advantage.

d) x thousands of kids will rejoin the state system thus busting an already over stretched system. Tax increases for everybody to pay for the extra resources and if you thought that it was hard getting into your over subscribed comp at the moment ......

As I said above, is banning private schools a badly thought out solution or am I missing something?

OP posts:
HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 04/12/2012 22:11

See this is a very interesting debate for me. Both my DDs go to one and I work in one, and yet ideologically I am against the idea of private, fee paying schools. Weird huh.

I grew up in Canada where you went to your local state primary around the corner, and so did all your friends, and you all lived really close together. Then you went to your local state secondary, slightly larger and slightly further afield, but still in your community. And it was fine.

I have given a lot of thought to this issue, mostly to come to terms with my own apparent hypocrisy. So here is my...

Hearts' Theory of Private Education in Britain

Back in the middle ages, hardly anyone went to school. Then the church started educating their clergy, and slowly the landed gentry started educating their sons, and I don't think it was until the Industrial Revolution and the ideal of Victorian charity and cohesive society that universal education became a goal or requirement of society. This means that here, in Britain, there has only ever been a two-pronged approach, with the upper classes and clergy taking care of their own education and the state only seeing it as their responsibility to educate those outside of these groups. It has only been in the last 120 years or so that people of all levels of society feel entitled to (and deserve) schooling, and look to the state to provide it.

In relatively young countries like Canada and the US, this dichotomy never existed in the first place. The government has always seen universal education as its responsibility, because educated citizens were needed to help build those countries. And so the state education sector flourished, because no one saw it as anyone else's responsibility.

This is turning into a novel.

LittenTree · 04/12/2012 22:11

I have absolutely no problem with anyone choosing to privately educate their DC. So long as their DC don't then nudge my DC out of a university place despite being no more, highly possibly less intelligent than mine but having had all the advantages of small classes, spoon-feeding and top of the range facilities at their private, socially, academically and financially selective schools.

Your DC's privately obtained A* should be considered the equivalent of my DC's B at a 'sink' comp or SM.

Once universities only take 7% of privately educated DC in keeping with the national average.

LittenTree · 04/12/2012 22:12

Hearts 36% of Australian DC are privately educated....

TalkinPeace2 · 04/12/2012 22:12

sorry?
the title of the thread is

"Is banning private schools a workable solution"

is it NOT another effing private / state thread - as those are just a waste of electricity and internet bandwidth

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 04/12/2012 22:13

Really Littentree! I had no idea!

breatheslowly · 04/12/2012 22:15

LittenTree - you do know that the universities matching the state and privately educated % like that doesn't make sense don't you? There is some difference in their intakes. I am not saying that there isn't room for significant improvement.

rabbitstew · 04/12/2012 22:15

What is this with people who are obsessed with the OP? Do you never view threads as a conversation?! Conversations move on... or they do when people start to claim that they are doing others a favour by educating their children privately. Besides which, in what way is a thread about banning private schools not a thread about private/state??? How can you discuss banning private schools without referring to state schools???!!!!!!

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 04/12/2012 22:15

Damn, might need to rethink my theory.

I know there are many more private schools in Toronto now than when I grew up. In the 70's it was unheard of. The only reason you would get sent to private school is if you were a troubled teen or had behaviour problems!

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 04/12/2012 22:17

"Your DC's privately obtained A* should be considered the equivalent of my DC's B at a 'sink' comp or SM."

but the trouble is, you see, that it isn't. The higher grade represents a child who has been better prepared for the demands of a university education; however their innate levels of ability compared to start with. Universities aren't in the business of remedial teaching for those who have been hobbled by the inadequacies of the state system.

TalkinPeace2 · 04/12/2012 22:17

Littentree
as per the maths I posted on another thread ....
the appropriate proportion for Russell Group universities will be around 25% - when its there, I will be reassured that opportunities are equal ... honest

breatheslowly · 04/12/2012 22:18

Rabbitstew - the OP asked some very specific and interesting questions. What is the point in reverting to the type of thread that the OP mentioned he/she had seen being discussed before?

rabbitstew · 04/12/2012 22:19

KarlosK - I sympathise with your viewpoint on the foolish state...

rabbitstew · 04/12/2012 22:20

breatheslowly - in what way are the questions interesting when nobody is seriously advocating the banning of private schools?

TalkinPeace2 · 04/12/2012 22:21

then let the thread die rather than diverting it into a whirlpool

rabbitstew · 04/12/2012 22:24

Sorry, I feel duty bound to comment when people claim they are doing the country a favour by choosing private education. I am fine with people saying they have the money and that's how they chose to spend it, because that is honest and true, and I have no problem with people saying the state alternatives near them are appalling, or that they have lost faith with the state providing a good education, but I have a problem with people saying they are doing others a favour by educating their children privately.

breatheslowly · 04/12/2012 22:25

People do advocate it, but never with a full model for how it would work. And given that no one has popped up on this thread with "let me outline how it could work..." and then successfully defended against the problems raised, it does seem unworkable. There have been some suggestions of private schools turning into academies, but the funding issue has not been answered.

Chandon · 04/12/2012 22:25

I believe in freedom of education, the more diverse the offer of schools the better, as all kids are different.

A lt of people who want to close or banprivate schools want to do so as " it is nt fair", ie the private schools are better.

If that is the case, then that should be a reason to make state schools better, not closing down private schools.

I like the fact that private schools raise the standard. In Winchester you can see a notable effect, with two excellent state comprehensives and a top notch sixth form college ( state) which is so good people do not bother to send their kids to a private sixth form.

We should aim to improve the state system by looking at what works inprivate schools ( slitly smaller classes, more focus on behaviour, subject teachers, more structure, higher expectations of pupils' ability ) and ditch the frills ( fancy grounds, gardens, fancy buildings, fancy uniforms, a certain " status").

No frills private schools, that charge tiny (ish) fees, now there is a market I reckon.

ReallyTired · 04/12/2012 22:28

"
Your DC's privately obtained A* should be considered the equivalent of my DC's B at a 'sink' comp or SM."

Nah! LittenTree My state educated son is doing well. He doesn't need sob stories or to be treated softly. He knows that the internet in the form of BBC bitesize, Khan Academy, YouTube can teach him.

I expect that he will get into a good uni on his own merit. Life is what you make of it.

breatheslowly · 04/12/2012 22:30

There is definitely a monetary benefit to the tax pot in sending a child to private school. Where that benefit goes can't be determined as money is fungible. It may be enabling other services to be provided or keeping tax rates down. You are right that it is not the motivation for people to send their children to private school and people should not expect gratitude for it any more than I expect a thank you letter each month for my PAYE or council tax.

TalkinPeace2 · 04/12/2012 22:31

Chandon
Winchester town is a dire example of private schools raising standards - as hardly any of those boys come from Winchester, it being a boarding school, and boys only.
Not many kids move to and from Winchester College / Peter Symonds / Kings / Westage.

Central London has lots of private schools.
Show me the non selective state schools there that have been pulled up by the competition.

nickymanchester · 04/12/2012 22:31

exexpat

''Most countries have private schools running alongside state schools, but the UK seems to be unique in the way private schooling is associated with wealth/social class and also higher academic standards''

Just to add another country to the list given previously, certainly in Russia there is a growing number of private schools, both local and international. In Russia, private education generally has much higher standards and is solely for the rich and well-connected.

rabbitstew · 04/12/2012 22:33

No, I certainly don't expect gratitude for tiny amounts of undefined benefit accorded to others as an unintended consequence of huge, direct benefits to myself.

breatheslowly · 04/12/2012 22:39

Equally, I think it is fair to acknowledge that we can't afford to ban private schools.

Chandon · 04/12/2012 22:40

Sorry, don't get what you mean, taliknpeace?

I mean to say that Winchester College' fame may have set a high bar for the other schools you mentioned. Kings for example are very proud to compete with private schools in terms of sports and academic results. They measure themselves against the local private schoos, and terfore aim high. That is the influence I meant of having good private schools nearby.

Though the truth is probably more complex and has to do with the whole area being a bit of a bubble, in socio economic terms.

Wouldn't it be great if Free schools become such a success that private becomes obsolete.

TalkinPeace2 · 04/12/2012 22:44

Chandon
Winchester Colleges's results have absolutely no impact at all on the results of the state schools in the town
Kings measure themselves against KES, HCS, Swithuns etc - ie the schools with whom they are comparable
and PSCs catchment is 50 miles across ....

if competition from good fee paying schools was a factor, then London (Westminster, St Pauls, NLCS, City of London, GDSTs etc etc etc) should have the best state schools in the country.

And Free schools are JUST a disaster waiting to happen.

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