Why is tutoring such a big deal with some people?

[APMF]

We downloaded some past papers. We 'tutored' our DCs in standard test taking techniques ie watch the clock, skip a question if you are stuck and return to it later, recheck your maths answers if you have the time and so on. Now, if parents want to pay someone to tutor their DCs in such obvious exam techniques then my rates are quite reasonable :)

After listening to so many presumably working class parents harp on about middle class parents buying a GS place for their dim? DCs, I wonder if the said parents realise how stupid they sound.

I mean, there is no secret technique that is known only to the Secret Brotherhood of Tutors. Some parents haven't the inclination to do the above and so they hire someone to do it for them. This hardly gives their kids an advantage over yours.

I get it that some of your DCs didn't pass the 11+ but why blame others for the fact that you didn't do your part as a parent or that your DC wasn't clever enough to pass?

1. yes, I do think they would be better people
2. must everything always be about what's in it for your children?

Good point Brycie - Similarly one particular MNetter is particularly proud of the fact that despite failing the 11+ she/he went on to Oxbridge so obviously the 11+ is not a true predictor of ability, goes the argument.

That is true but it also proves that failing the 11+ is not the first inevitable step towards a lifetime of disappointment and failure.

TOSN - Replace the question with - must it always be about what is best for my children? - and the answer is Yes.

If you and I were to take ALL the money we spend on treats for our children and donate it to some Third World charity we could save a lot of lives. You might surprise me and say that you do.

You and me are letting children die so that DC can have a nice birthday party with lots of presents that they will probably lose interest in after a few months. So, in the grand scheme of things, me wanting a selective education for my kids doesn't make you markedly a better human being.

Well I wasn't having a competition about Who Is The Best Human, and I think 'you and me [sic] are letting children die' is a bit of an emotive and silly argument, to be honest. I don't disagree with selective education because I think it makes me a better human, though I do recoil from the 'me first, you last, out of the way, it's all about my children' mentality suggested here.

Thank you for pointing out my I/me mistake. It adds a lot to the conversation [inserts sarcasm emoticon].

The whole thing is like the 'joke' - would you sleep with me for £10m? Yes. For £100? No. We've established what you are so it's just a matter of degree.

We are all focused on doing what is best for our children. Your DCs, sod the poor and the starving, are going to get their birthday parties so please don't lecture other parent about their non-lethal choices for their DCs.

This is what I don't understand about some people. They aspire for their DCs to go to a RG university or Oxbridge even. Using their arguments against selective education, shouldn't their DCs be going off to Thames Valley? Diverse crowd there unlike the highly selective universities. The presence of your academic DCs will pull up standards etc etc.

How come I never hear people make that argument? It's as if they are against a selective education at secondary because they feel that their DCs are at a disadvantage but come university time they aspire for their DCs to get into a highly selective university.

Actually I think the GS argument is focussing on small numbers of children without looking at the bigger picture. It's a total distraction. It's very much about the "my child, my child" point of view.

What you should all be campaigning for is better education all round. The reason people are so desperate for GS's is because non GS education is not as good as it should be; the reason why tutoring is such a big deal is that primary education is not as good as it should be.

Hence why you are all flailing around when it's pointed out that if you believe that GS's don't take the bet, only the best tutored, then why aren't high schools and comprehensives doing much better with the "bet" children that have apparently been missed.

This is why I think it's absolute rubbish about the not caring. MY children go to a private school. Do I care about the 93 per cent that don't? Damn right I do. It affects us all when national education levels are so low. I argue time after time after time that primary education needs to be brought up to the rigorous and exciting standards offered by preps and private tuition.

But a lot of lefty anti GS types are exactly the same people who don't want that, they think it's oppressive, and they want us all to learn through play until we're about 21, and that we shouldn't be mean and boring by making them spell properly and listen to them read in school and making them learn their times tables.

But you all put your halos on and say "I care I care". It's in large part just the politics of envy. If I can't have it, no one can have it. Dogs in the manger attitude.

And that, seeker, is why you make your snide, sneering patronising comments and why I pick up on them - because your (confused) campaign is not about the facts of what is going on - it's about a nasty attitude towards the parents of grammar school children.

The reason people are so desperate for GS's is because non GS education is not as good as it should be;

Is that so? I don't see any move in my area to bring back grammar schools.

Living in a non grammer area I rarly meet many parents with same opinions as mumsnetters.

Its bit diffferent here though im outer city suberb different lea to all the sink comps.

The choice here

is nearby academy-short bus ride 83% 5 GCSES a -c-most peoples prefered option was good comp pre academy my worry now is how huge it is.

2local comps ie can walk to

nearest 43%pass rate, rumours its changing to science academy has new head and new uniform ties and blazers, its in affluent catchment yet not many local people go.

one of 3faith schools miles away from us and selection on faith means not many go even catholics dident get into rc secondry one of best in city.

3academies 2which were private select 10%then rest lottory and again all 3 a distance.

The best performing normal comp within city is in very affleunt area and tiny catchment

Or several independants top results in city every year.

doesnt leave much choice of you non faith wanting well performing academically good school its based on faith or luck not effort or money.

The leas no longer pay bus travel.
one know lady who managed to get son into nearest lottory academy its £60 a month imagine ones further away be more.
Some schools have very expensive uniform too.

All of these are barriers to a lot of people.

Spoken to few parents last couple of years and their priority seems to be local school one they can walk too.
Had conversation last night about the nearest comp and was saying new heads fab and I thourght but head doesnt do the teaching if less than half the year passed gcses thats dismall in my book plus i witness their poor behaviour outside the school so was amazed its on her list. Then another mum said ahh its becoming a science academy like it would have some sort of major advantage over other schools seems barmy.

Most parents want school not too big, good behaviour,, good results, no bullying, nice facilities finding all that from one school that can actually get into in some areas can be hell especially within cities.

I agree ethos is important and aspiration.
I like extra curricular and enrichment so team sports ect.

Im trying not to stress as my dd year 2.

I will do my best to get one of our 4choices and hope for best.

but its really hard and realise even if dont go private their will be significant cost to get my 3kids into one of the better city secondries.

But I try to keep open mind as hopefully in few years some pooor perfoming schools can become good.

I know if we had a grammer most people would least try.

I dont see how banning them and reducing everyone down to lowest denominater will help.

There are good comps out there but think if you check postcodes and catchments of them you will realise they still had to be wealthy middleclass

The debate should be about improving uk education for all.
so every area has decent comp.

my ex and couple of his freinds went to independant school on assisted places scheme which labour scrapped in 97 they all went onto russel group unis.

There was something in the news about private schools opening up more places .

Also so many against free schools but toby youngs free school west london sounds amazing yet people slate him for teaching latin and trying to be a grammer school.

Free school opened here sounds good sadly miles away and out of catchment.

TOSN - I got a spare few minutes :)

My DS and his school mates do a lot of homework 'collaboration' (ok, copying to you and me) so that everyone gets a good mark. There is healthy competition but when one gets the top mark the others are happy for that kid.

My point? The flip side of my parenting perspective does not by default result in a child that goes me me me, sod the rest, out of my way, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

seeker how do you manage daughters schools parents evening /social events when you despise and judge most of the parents in the room? Does you daughter like her grammer is she doing well?

Think your son started september? hows he doing is he happy?
is he in top sets and doing well academically?

If you reallly felt that strongly i dont get why when they were primary you dident seek to relocate?

So many people travel across counties hour+each day to get into grammers means

very tiring
very expensive
sacrafice social life for child and parent
parent becoming ataxi service
freinds far away from each other.

its a sacrafice -hardly being selfish people do it for the reason that some things in life are worth the sacrafice.

If child bs parents cant give a toss about child bs education then yes ist sad but can see how i can influence that or deny my child chance of something better.

"Is that so? I don't see any move in my area to bring back grammar schools."

Surely everyone knows that more grammars are not going to happen? That's why free schools were so popular when they opened up, that's why people flock to anything outside the "traditional" comprehensive ideal, the academy, the faith school.

"Actually I think the GS argument is focussing on small numbers of children without looking at the bigger picture"

by this I mean the argument against GS, this argument here, that comes up again and again and is running on mn all over the place at the moment

Brycie - it must depend where you are because I haven't seen that happening. Most people seem to want a decent local school, and we are fortunate because we have some of those locally. I don't think any are academies yet, but one is planning to convert - the one which happens to have the least good reputation. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I think brycie right

its fair to say no political party supports more grammers.

In areas where grammer sytem remains kent/essex, ni then the secondry moderns be considered the lesser schools.

There are others ares like gloucestershire that has grammers but good comps.

A good comp can exist when only small perecentage go grammer as not aall the top performing pupils will be creamed off would be small %of secondry intake within that county.

But in areas where there are no selectives.

There are dire comps not all comps work well yet they held to be the best model.

we need a 3rd way-not sure what.

Im not sure here why faith schools get the best results?
Just because someones religious dont see how that makes them clever?

Unless you live in nice cathment the choices can be dire.

its sad that most of top jobs go private school which only accounts for 7%of population-how to redress this balance?

Brycie - you also said that people flock to the faith school. The only non-independent faith school locally is an RC school 8 miles away. I know lots of Catholics who go to the three local comprehensives which are aren't faith schools but which are within 3 miles rather than travel.

A local independent school is RC, but seems to have as many Anglicans, Methodists and Baptists on the roll as Catholics.

The top jobs at my company are filled with Oxbridge/Harvard MBA types. Even if I introduced a rule :) that the company can only employ senior execs from red bricks that wouldn't help me since I'm not the high flyer type :(

So to me, complaining that the top jobs go to the select few is like complaining about the high taxes being paid by people earning a million plus. That is not me. Never will be.

So unless you have a brilliant DC who could be the next Foreign Secretary if only he was privately educated then what do case about the 7%?

Mam29, I don't despise most grammar school parents- which you would know if you read what I say rather than what others think I say.

I won't go into the reasons why moving is impossible for us- but moving is impossible for us.

"But a lot of lefty anti GS types are exactly the same people who don't want that, they think it's oppressive, and they want us all to learn through play until we're about 21, and that we shouldn't be mean and boring by making them spell properly and listen to them read in school and making them learn their times tables.

But you all put your halos on and say "I care I care". It's in large part just the politics of envy. If I can't have it, no one can have it. Dogs in the manger attitude."

Oh this is such a silly thing to say. Nobody has said anything of the sort.

I just wondered seeker as you make assumptions about grammer parents.

Essy to make if you not in the system but are with dd1

is the mix of parents from diffrent socio-economic groups?
do some come from state som eproivate do you know %split|
Do the parents to you seem nice, supportive of school ie attended events , sucessful pta that sort of thing?

Does the grammer school offer

more subjects than comp?
better facilities?
afterschool slubs/sports?
small classes?

what attarcted you and yoir daughter to this school over your sons school?

are you and son happy with his school?

"@seeker - Aren't you being a bit hypocritical (again)?

You want to deny parents the opportunity to choose a selective education for their DCs. Why? Because you consider the system is unfair to your DC. You want to do what is best for YOUR child. And the difference between you and a GS parent is.......?

You don't care about the 23% so please don't lecture them about how they should care about the 77%."

I think the system is unfair for all children. My children are both doing fine, thank you. But they would both do equally well in a proper comprehensive school. This is not about my children.I just don't understand why people think having the top sets in a different building to the other sets is better for the top sets? They would still be there in a comprehensive, the only difference would be that some of the 77% might be able to join them.

I find it interesting that the pro grammar people have failed to address the point that, with a comparable catchment area, a comprehensive school and a grammar plus a high school will have very similar results- with the comprehensive frequently doing better. Two people, I think, replied with accounts of their child being bullied at a comprehensive. But there is bullying in all schools- any school which says it has no bullying is lying.

"I just wondered seeker as you make assumptions about grammer parents.
I don't, you know. Most of the parents I am making assumptions about on this thread are not grammar school parents. I have made q couple of comments about the looking after number one attitude- but only whennpeople have displayed it

Essy to make if you not in the system but are with dd1

is the mix of parents from diffrent socio-economic groups?
do some come from state som eproivate do you know %split|
Do the parents to you seem nice, supportive of school ie attended events , sucessful pta that sort of thing?

No- practically no socio-economic mix at all. overwhelmingly professional middle class. Yes they are nice and supportive. Don't know about the private/ state split- in dd's circle of friend's I would say it was about 25% from private schools, but I don't know if that's typical
Does the grammer school offer

more subjects than comp?
better facilities?
afterschool slubs/sports?
small class
are you asking me to compare dd's grammar with ds's high school? There's no comprehensive in the equation.
The high school has fewer subjects, comparable facilities, significantly fewer after school clubs. But the classes are about the same size

what attarcted you and yoir daughter to this school over your sons school?
She passed the 11+- he didn't!

are you and son happy with his school

Academically he's doing well. He's reasonably happy. He is very sporty, and the sport is good. However, he is also musical, and there is very little drama or music- there is loads of both at the grammar school, so he does get dispirited when he hears about his friends in choirs and orchestras and plays.

Is that what you wanted to know?

Aplogies seeker if upset you and being nosy just trying to understand your veiws but its hard.

When parents look around schools grammer or comp they make a decisions based on facilities, subjects, ethos pastoral care , distance ect on if it appeals and it if be suitable for their dd before applying and sitting the 11+.

So what im asking is what attracted you to grammer even before the 11+? assumed you looked around and liked the school?

Doid you look around all local schools?
how much choice did you have?

was it grammer or modern?

are you near the border of lea that does have true comp?

Do you have privates that offer scholarship or bursary if hes very talented at sports/music and academically bright?

Glad to hear your sons happy and doing well at his new school.
Is their option for him to do drama/music locally outside of school as our local church has a choir.

I cant speak about secondrys as mines in primary no 2 but both have been leafy affluent areas with mostly middleclass parents-nothing special about just grammers. Also as you dont have playground so much possible you not seen all the parents maybe more even mix than you think.

25%private mean 75%state schools get in sounds good.

Do you regret now not tutoring do you think the margin of error was small or big? did sons freinds all get tutored?

I agree with Brycie that we should all want to improve education for all children.

As I said in this thread already, we are not in a grammar area and the local school are terrible. When they abolished grammar schools here, many moons ago, the following happened: the ex-grammars became very good comprehensives and house prices doubled and tripled all around the catchment.

The ex-secondary moderns remained sink schools with bad ethos and very little aspiration. We are all amazed that decades later the situation is still the same. It is indeed very sad and it is hard to break the cycle as middle class parents will continue to avoid the local sink and so will I.

A good friend of mine who lives in Kent sent both her DDs to an independent primary, where they received an excellent education in small classes and loads of extracurricular wot not.
Her eldest also had tutoring, and has a place at a super-selective state grammar. Little sis is likely to follow. She is a great kid and will do really well, but it makes my raw inside with rage, which I am careful not to show .
I feel angry and dreadfully sad on behalf of the other kid; the one who is equally or more bright, went to the state primary and had no tutoring, "failed" to get into the superselective and is at the iffy comprehensive skewed towards the lower achievers, purely due to the fact that the brightest and richest kids got creamed off. That system stinks. And I don't blame the other kid's parents for not downloading papers off the internet! Or really my friend. It is the shitty system.