Why is tutoring such a big deal with some people?

[APMF]

We downloaded some past papers. We 'tutored' our DCs in standard test taking techniques ie watch the clock, skip a question if you are stuck and return to it later, recheck your maths answers if you have the time and so on. Now, if parents want to pay someone to tutor their DCs in such obvious exam techniques then my rates are quite reasonable :)

After listening to so many presumably working class parents harp on about middle class parents buying a GS place for their dim? DCs, I wonder if the said parents realise how stupid they sound.

I mean, there is no secret technique that is known only to the Secret Brotherhood of Tutors. Some parents haven't the inclination to do the above and so they hire someone to do it for them. This hardly gives their kids an advantage over yours.

I get it that some of your DCs didn't pass the 11+ but why blame others for the fact that you didn't do your part as a parent or that your DC wasn't clever enough to pass?

I grew up in the Midlands. Towns like West Bromwich is predominantly working class. The middle classes live in Sutton Coldfield while the rich live in Solihull. This was 20 years ago so things might have changed. So, to me a comprehensive that has a diverse wc/mc/rich people catchment is not 'typical'. That is all I meant by that.

As for comps being 'crap', it wasn't me that said that. My position is simply that the GS system is a good system which is not the same as saying Comps are 'crap'.

But I still believe that even if those feelings are there to an extent, it's still better than keeping them in a separate building. More civilised.

True orangeberries though some schools do take from a very mixed area and are still successful.

Not sure how to tackle that one...

Arisbottle

May I make a few comments?
You say..
"My third child is in year 6 and had no interest in the grammar...therefore she was told at the start of Year 6 that it she did not work harder and achieve levels I knew that she could I would get her a tutor and she would be entered for the grammar."

I admire your courage for what is potentially a high-risk strategy on many levels. Most importantly, the 2012 closing dates of the first week in September would be well-known/common knowledge and I have to say even the children in DD2's class were talking about it...a lot!

With your eldest son, who you state is "off the scale clever" you mentioned that you

"... knew that he was likely to come near to top of the test and that if he didn't we would get him in on appeal because of the bullying which was making him feel suicidal."

I mean no offence to you or your son, but may I clear something up, in case anyone reads this and feels it's easy to win an appeal for a place at GS?

Even with supremely intelligent children (and I respect your rationale re: Aspergers) the 11+ is a gamble interms of how well the children perform on the day - it's a well known fact. There's no guarantees. In my area, the GS are superselective - hardly anyone wins an appeal. Of course different areas may have varying success rates but one aspect appears to be consistent throughout: extenuating circumstances alone are not necessarily enough to convince an appeal panel to offer a place. An appellant has to have incredibly compelling evidence of academic prowess to show why the 11+ was a blip. The focus of an appeal should not be on the extenuating circumstances but on evidence to prove what was happening academically, both before and after the exam.
Apologies if you already knew this, but others may not and it's vitally important if parents are considering an appeal for an 11+ result.

And you're less likely to feel a failure in set three for maths if you can see that your friend in the top set isn't hockey captain, and your friend in set two might not be a soloist.... Etc. rather than not being allowed in the same school building or environment as them ever again.

I'm not so sure LaQueen. In my year of 500 or so pupils no one really knew where everyone sat in terms of sets. And even if you had an idea from the lessons you shared (RE etc) it wasn't really a big deal in terms of friendship groups.

You sound delightful OP.

It is a high risk strategy with our daughter, I know . Our closing date was after the one you quote . She also knows that we could apply to send her in Year 8 and therefore the threat is a rolling one!

We are not in a super selective area and therefore it would come as something of a surprise if ds did not get a place , I knew that if did not perform on the day, ( which was very unlikely ) he would be on the cusp of getting a place and it would be very out of character .

I am reluctant to say more as I am very easily recognisable with my brood of children , late entrant to teaching and son with special needs . But we were not taking about mild playground banter here, but serious prolonged bullying which necessitated involvement from CAMHS and the police .

La Queen, you have taken extremes but that Child B could be brilliant at art or drama and be able to achieve really good marks in these. You are looking at a minority going to get a handful of low grade GCSEs and the school could direct them to a career such as a mechanic which could actually earn them a lot more money than an Oxford student who decides to concentrate on drugs rather than studying. People change.

losingtrust the parent doesn't have to be suffocatingly involved. All they need to do is pass on their IQ and provide an environment where education is valued, where books are freely available and where intelligent conversation flows around a wide variety of subjects.

So are you saying no child with parents who are uninterested is ever going to join a library, join the debating society etc because that is just not true. The IQ does not necessarily achieve high results. Also APMF, I grew up in the Midlands, went to school in Birmingham and my Ex in Dudley. We both got degrees from Russell Group unis after comps and that was 20 years ago+. The Solihull schools are beginning to lag behind some of the inner city schools now.

Arisbottle
"It is a high risk strategy with our daughter, I know . Our closing date was after the one you quote . She also knows that we could apply to send her in Year 8 and therefore the threat is a rolling one! "

The 28th September was the last deadline date for any 11+ exam - still a short window and even more time for the chance to talk about it in class

Hmmm the 13+ ...it's allegedly as hard to get a place at GS with this, as it is to actually win an appeal and then actually get a place. Many pass the 13+ - few actually get that elusive place. You must have sphericals of steel, is all I can say

LaQueen My mother hated education after her grammar school experience, did not want us to go to uni and I cannot say we had lots of intellectual conversations. We had all meals apart from Sunday dinner infront of the TV. All three of us though really appreciated education and enjoyed learning. Our parents did not check our homework books or ask us if we had studied. We did it all ourselves. We watched all the soaps and I did my homework infront of the TV. Fortunately I am a visual learner so learnt a lot from TV and from School. I watched a film, read the book, school introduced me to the classics etc. My mom never read. We and the schools taught us to love education.

Yes the deadline wasn't much after the one you quoted which is why the threat has extended into Year 8! But it was sufficient to give her a crisp start to Year 6 and end to year 5. Dd is also keen to get into top sets in the comprehensive and she knows that will only happen if she ends Year 6 with at least straight level 5s.

We are on the edge of the grammar area and we feed into a very good secondary so it is not that unusual for a very bright child to go to the comprehensive rather than the grammar . Therefore in some ways the children do not gossip about who is or isn't going as they may do in schools in the heart of town . Having said this my dd was the only one out of her level 6 group at her primary that did not apply for the grammar although from what I have been told they did not all get places . But I am not certain.

She has also been warned as I said that if she does not end this year well or make a crisp start to secondary school we will make a Year 8 application . This threat is a two fold one, because I teach at her intended secondary in quite a senior position and therefore she knows that I will know what is going on.

I have known some successful late applications to the grammar ( as in a later year) however I am giving my dd the impression that it is easier than it actually is.

It is risky and I do have balls of steel. Unfortunately so does she!

All the rich living in Solihull. Tell that to the residents of Chelmsley Wood (also part of Solihull and the area that Solihull LEA is investing lots of resources into rather than the parts of South Birmingham where there are still some kids living in rough areas but do not have as much money spent on the school. This is the area where last Wednesday I said you could buy a house in the catchment of a real well respected school for £160k) so actually Solihull is more diverse than you think.

Some of you posters paint such an attractive picture. Let's take a school where people feel like failures and where the parents are apathetic about education and where the teachers aren't inspiring. Let's then close down the GS, send the kids to the secondary modern and call it a comprehensive. Kids at the former sec mod will no longer feel like failures. The influx of pushy mums will be good for the school PTA etc. But what does the ex GS kid get out of the deal?

It's like at our former state primary school. The girls were selected for the school netball team and although they weren't great they won more than they lost. Then some of the mums complained about the lack of inclusiveness. Consequently any one who wanted to play became a team member and the girls would be swapped in and out so that everyone got to play. We started to rapidly lose every game we played.

The two left footers no longer felt excluded so they (and their mom's) were happy but what did my DS get out of it?

Similarly, if we got rid of selective education your DCs may no longer feel like failures but what does my DCs get out of it?

@losing - like I said, it was 20 years ago so I don't expect things to be the same.

APMF that is exactly what happened in my area. I went to a former secondary modern and all the pushy parents improved the chances for all the kids and still managed to produce Oxbridge candidates and with competition for neighbouring schools education went up for everybody.

I think your child a and b are unrealistically binary, laqueen.

APMF - do you not think that the pushy mums will ensure that their children do well whatever school they end up in? And that in a large comprehensive, you could get around the netball problem by having different teams playing at different levels? What's wrong with an A team and a B team? Or a 1st team, 2nd team, 3rd team, etc? Why assume people cannot be streamed for sport if everyone accepts that people can be set for academic subjects?

"Similarly, if we got rid of selective education your DCs may no longer feel like failures but what does my DCs get out of it?"

It won't make any difference to your dc- they will carry on exactly as before but in the top sets of a comprehensive school, rather than in a grammar school.

I guess in a really small school, you could have too small a number of really talented children to fill the top sets? So how worthwhile is it to get some people to travel very long distances to get to a super selective school, rather than go to the local, small comprehensive?