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71% of 'top people' went to private school, or grammar school

281 replies

joanbyers · 20/11/2012 13:27

Link:
www.suttontrust.com/research/the-educational-backgrounds-of-the-nations-leading-people/leading-people-report.pdf

"Ten leading independent schools accounted for 12% of the leading people for which schools data was available. These are: Eton College; Winchester College; Charterhouse School; Rugby School; Westminster School; Marlborough College; Dulwich College; Harrow School; St Paul?s Boys? School; Wellington College (see table 1 for top 100 schools). "

It's interesting that these leading schools are pretty much ALL boarding schools, the significance of which is that the fees tend to be around £30k/year (so I reckon this is as much about parental connections as anything else)

Wellington does not have a glittering academic reputation, sending handfuls to Oxford. Charterhouse, on £32k/year, has a fraction of the Oxbridge admissions of the nearby Royal Grammar School, Guildford (fees only £13k/year) - which is present in the list, at #58, but behind schools for the rich but dim such as Bradfield

The leading independent schools that aren't exclusively boarding schools (and therefore implying super-rich parents) are all in London, which is home of the elite.

The leading comps are Holland Park School, where lefties send their kids for ideological reasons and which has had £10s of millions lavished on it, and Haverstock School, which is likewise a popular choice with the left-wing elite.

Just 10% of 'top people' attended a comprehensive.

Of course these figures are calculated many years in arrears, so not the best guide for the future, but the 44% of leading people who attended private schools I guess will increase, as the 27% who went to grammars die off (i.e. most of the grammar schools listed are now comps)

OP posts:
APMF · 29/11/2012 13:48

As mentioned in another thread, my DS does about 2 hours homework a night. On top of this load he takes lessons in three instruments. Plus he does orchestra and quartet. Then there is the athletics club that he attends once a week. On top of this he gets ample Me Time to play on his PC and Apple Touch or simply hang loose at his mates.

His school sends a lot of boys to Oxbridge each year and according to the OP's link it has educated a lot of the so called 'top people'. So, unless DS trips up, his future is bright.

What irks me is that his tireless energy is, hopefully, going to get him into Oxbridge and from there a 'top' job but then he will have to face the 'homework is the work of the devil' brigade who will go on and on about the unfair system that favours private school kids over their kids.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 29/11/2012 15:05

Seriously, APMF?

How many people do you think 'go on and on' to management consultants/bankers/other worthy contributors to society about how they only have their job because they went to private school?
Just before I break out my world's smallest violin and all.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 29/11/2012 15:10

Mind you, I have heard DH and his best mate (same industry, both state-educated) discuss people who only have their jobs because they went to private school... but in the context of slack-jawed amazement at their incompetence.
And genuine delight on meeting them on the other side of a deal. Grin

But I'm sure that won't be an issue with your DS. Not with two hours' homework a night and all.

CecilyP · 29/11/2012 16:40

I am not sure what your point is, APMF. Once your DS is in the working world, top job or otherwise, I doubt if anyone will care how much homework he did in the early years of secondary.

Yellowtip · 29/11/2012 17:02

How old is your DS APMF. Has he taken his GCSEs (or IGCSEs)?

orangeberries · 29/11/2012 17:48

'homework is the work of the devil' brigade who will go on and on about the unfair system that favours private school kids over their kids.

Not sure exactly what point you are trying to make here?

Is your point really that state school kids (all 93% of the population) do not play musical instruments, do serious sports, attend extracurricular clubs? Or that they do not get homework? Because if your children attended a state school you'd find that the vast majority of children, even in primary school attend a number of activities, play musical instruments and do homework!!

APMF · 29/11/2012 18:45

@Boulevard. You got the wrong end of the stick. I am summarising the point made by the other side. Namely that Oxbridge and professions like law are biased in favour of private school kids because of snobbery or the Old School Tie.

I was knocking it down as opposed to endorsing it.

APMF · 29/11/2012 19:11

@Cecily - Are you choosing to deliberately misinterpret what I am saying? Of course at the age of 21 no one is going to give a feck how many hours of homework he did as a kid.

DS's school conduct things as if it is a university. Pupils prep for each lesson so come the actual lesson the class discusses the subject as opposed to just listening to the teacher talk. This is what Oxbridge is looking for and this is why so many of their pupils get places.

The point I was trying to make is this. If you think that homework is a waste of time and that children should be children and that they shouldn't be pressured then that is fine. Just don't moan that Oxbridge admissions is unfairly biased in favour of schools like mine.

helpyourself · 29/11/2012 19:39

Apologies if this point has been made, but the list is really just a snapshot of important schools 30+ years ago. By definition people of influence are old and male. Hence the lack of Girls' Schools high up. The world has changed, not enough, but I bet if you looked at the highest attaining under 30 year olds (who were educated in the 90's) their educational background would be more diverse.

TalkinPeace2 · 29/11/2012 19:40

Its not even that
its a list of people whose birthdays are listed in the Times.

APMF · 29/11/2012 19:44

@yellowtip- No he hasn't taken his exams yet. Cue exaggerated rolling of the eyes by Yellowtip.

Before you say it, yes I know that the only things that are certain in life is death and taxes. That is why I said 'unless he trips up'.

As it stands, he is predicted a clean slate of A GCSEs. And yes I know A grades are no guarantee of an Oxbridge place. And yes I know he might at any point drop out and become a beach bum. And no, this is not me trying to live my life through DS.

I'm sorry. Did I just use up all your talking points? :)

helpyourself · 29/11/2012 19:48

Grin tp2
I wonder why the SuttonTrust commissioned it, it's a bit fur coat no knickers research, especially when you get to the single figure schools. You might as well publish data correlating breakfast cereal to educational outcomes.

APMF · 29/11/2012 19:51

@orange - I was directing my comments at the posters who seem to think that their children's brain will explode if they were academically pressured by a bit of homework.

APMF · 29/11/2012 20:03

@help - If you look at recent reports you will see that Oxbridge undergrads are still disproportionately GS and Private. Blue chip employers tend to recruit their fast trackers from Oxbridge so one can extrapolate that the next generation of 'top people' will show the same bias as the current list. So not much change there

helpyourself · 29/11/2012 20:08

But a significant change at least gender-wise. Oxbridge actively recruits from schools not on the list. That was not the case when the people on the list were at school.

TalkinPeace2 · 29/11/2012 20:59

helpyourself
Sutton Trust : ££$$££$$££$$££$$
from somebody with an axe to grind

APMF
NB the 50 : 50 split of state : non state at Oxbridge is actually not nearly as shocking as it might seem (as the parent of state school kids)
because of the demographics of selective and non selective education.
I suspect it will settle at around 70:30 private to State even in another ten years
for eminently sound statistical reasons.

Yellowtip · 29/11/2012 22:27

APMF you seem ridiculousy hung up on Oxfod and Cambridge as a parent, almost unhealthily so. You should try getting out more. Big deal to straight A*s. Lots of kids get those. Even at states.

APMF · 29/11/2012 23:09

@Yellowtip - You are right. I do have this unhealthy interest in Oxbridge. I'm such a sad person for wanting my son to study at two of the best universities in the world. I should temper my ambitions for my son so that they are more modest like yours for your DC. [place holder for sarcasm emoticon]

Yellowtip · 29/11/2012 23:18

I've never had an unhealthy interest though APMF. I don't think that's how it happens.

Yellowtip · 29/11/2012 23:20

And your ambitions for your son ? Confused.

APMF · 29/11/2012 23:45

This is a strange conversation. Of course I have ambitions for my child. Don't most parents? It's not as if I am telling him that he must be a doctor or a barrister or that he must study Business and then get a job in the City.

What is wrong with wanting your child to go to one of the best universities in the world? Or is this the old British Thing? ie it is bad form to be too ambitious. After all, we aren't Americans. Is that it?

Heroine · 30/11/2012 02:09

Phew! So much confusion here!

The problem isn't so much the cliche of 'he's one of us, give him a job' (equally this could be said at the working class level). The problem is the poor thinking that ends up with a result that looks like a 'he's one of us' bias.

This is the narrative that says 'top public schools both recruit and produce the elite' - if that is the case why pay? (since if they recruit the elite and the outcome is.. the elite, what value are they adding (or put another way, real education worth paying for would recruit the dull and produce the elite))

At Uni, there is a similar narrative - top unis both recruit the best and produce the best - again, why pay, since you have the best already, what value is the uni adding, again, surely the better university is the one that takes the lower abilities and makes more of them.

Employers are duped by both. They believe that if they recruit from top universities, they are getting both pupils selected by ability AND pupils who have been through the best universities.

In fact what employers do when they recruit from top universities is recruit from public schools, with outcomes predicted by primary-school level performance. They do not employ people with innate abilities higher than the average, in fact they recruit people with similar abilities to the normal population with the only distinguishing feature is resources spent on education.

What we, as a country, need is the high achievers from any walk of life to be given the best resources for study HOWEVER what wealthy family would, in truth, be keen to see their offspring move down socially because they have middle-ranking intelligence, because a better able pupil is available to the education system?

This is why the UK did so well in wartime and in crisis. In crisis, johnny toff who is thick can be cast aside for bobby working class if bobby is going to be better for the country's mission as a whole in johnny toff's job.

In fact top public schools do NOT recruit the elite - they by far in the majority recruit on ability to pay.

The output is therefore a function of money. The public school system demonstrates that mediocre students with a great deal of money spent on their education do well and therefore that anyone with a great deal of money spent on them will do relatively well, irrespective of ability. which means class/money rears its head but also the attendant outcome, that many people in jobs recruited through private school and top university aren't the best able overall.

People with little money but high ability will do averagely with few resources, but much better than the average with maximum resources. This is backed up by data that shows a middle grade pupil from a comp is more likely to get a first than a high grading student from public school.

if employers want to recruit the most able, therefore, they should recruit middle to high ranking students from comprehensives into their top level recruitment programmes, and this means they should target high performers from middle to low-ranking universitiies ahead of mediocre performers from top universities.. but guess what, britains top 100 employers only go to 10 universities in good times, and 5 or less in 'bad' times, thus ensuring a public school bias straight away, and a higher probablity of recruiting a mediocre student in terms of ability.

losingtrust · 30/11/2012 07:02

15% of the kids from my ds comp got minimum ten straight As last year and they work hard in the last two years but not two hours homework a night from day one plus they have a social life, ie hanging round with mates and going shopping. Oh and they also play musical instruments and play sport but parents let them get on with things.

losingtrust · 30/11/2012 07:04

Oh and this is a non-selection comp and relatively lazy in terms of added value. Surely these kids must be brighter then?

APMF · 30/11/2012 09:16

@heroine - You are lumping indies in with public schools like Eton. Their pupil profiles are different but you are using the same argument about both. There aren't that many (if any) rich but dim kids at DC's indie.

The comprehensive school reforms resulted in the well-off going private and the slightly less well-off moving to good catchment areas. Today house prices at the school gate are beyond the reach of many ordinary families. As for the remaining GSs, expensive tutors are employed so once again the poor are at a disadvantage. If private schools are banned the parents will simply buy their way into the catchment area of the good schools. This time it will be the less well-off middle classes that gets pushed out.

(puts on Cynic Hat) You can change the rules in an attempt to make things more equitable but the rich and well-off will always adapt. All you can hope to do is to play the game better than the next person. In my case, rather than complain that the top jobs go to Oxbridge grads I am trying to ensure that my working class son is one of those Oxbridge grads. I guess I can live with the fact that people like Yellowtip thinks that this is 'unhealthy' :)

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