Grammar school tests to be made 'tutor-proof'

[breadandbutterfly]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/9653189/Grammar-school-tests-to-be-made-tutor-proof.html

TotallyBS I think the point is that they are outside the gates before open evenings handing out leaflets, and lurking to get feedback on actual questions fresh from the tests to feedback into tutoring more victims pupils. I don't doubt they are the loony extreme especially since the tutors with the supposed magic inside track have built a mystique around themselves which includes access only through chinese whispers and secret handshakes, and supposedly through the use of a certain hairdressers

It is ridiculous but if you saw the state of some of the parents in the school playground end of Year 5 / Year 6 you would see they are ripe for exploitation. I have developed the hostage rescuing skills of the SAS so quickly did I get my DD out of the miasma of desperation and competitiveness. To be honest as well as making the tests tutor proof they should give out Valium to the parents. I do know many parents who have come to regret it and feel a sort of madness descended on them to having even considered putting their DCs through it.

Most people agree that there?s nothing wrong with doing practise papers at home. But why so many people object to paying for tutoring. If a parent hasn?t got the time, skill, a peace and quiet place to DIY assist their dc so why shouldn?t the parent pay for a trustworthy teacher to support their dc. Although I agree many parents are over obsessive about gss. If the state schools would prepare parents and kids for the tests there may be less need for paying for tutors. After all 11+s are state school exams and gss are state funded schools. Most tutors from reliable sources are qualified professionals not witches (I hope!).

Russiansonthespree I live in Bucks and attended a presentation last week the County Council had sent out to all primary schools on the changes to the 11+. It said that special educational needs would be taken into account, and it is possible for parents to comment on the proposals via their website as part of the consultation process. There isn't much official info about what is going to be in the test (I suppose they don't want to give too much away), but there is an awful lot of speculation about the content (on fora and amongst mums) so that might have heightened your worries, hopefully unnecessarily.

One of the other interesting things that came out of the presentation was that the test would not include material beyond year 5, so there shouldn't be a need to get tutoring to cover year 6 maths.

FWIW, I attended some local gs open days last autumn and certainly didn't see any tutors lurking with flyers, so maybe that's a London thing. There is certainly an industry here though, and it is clearly unregulated. Some of the tutors who have been happily tutoring just for Bucks old-style vr exam will probably not be able to add much value when it comes to maths and nvr, but I doubt that will stop them charging worried parents.

@April - some people are obsessed with trying to make sure nobody else's child has any teensy weensy 'advantage' over their child. It's a form of madness. When DD1 was at primary school, she had some one to one support from the SENCO because of her SEN issues. Another mother, whose child was also considering doing the 11+ made a huge fuss about this because she was convinced that DD1 was getting 'tutoring' from the school. In fact DD1 was having handwriting help and touch typing practice. And she was embarrassed enough about it as it was without this woman braying about it in the playground. :(

Copt - Some people just can't win with you.

You mock those tutors who get business by word of mouth and by a so called secret handshake. At the same time you mock those who openly and proactively look for new customers.

You mock these tutors for getting feedback to benefit future customers. You then mock the view that these tutors offer any added value.

Many parents place their kids in organized swimming classes because their DCs respond better to a non parent instructor. I know various people who refuse to give driving instructions to loved ones. Are all these people also being duped by unscrupulous instructors as well?

Just in case you are wondering, no I am not a tutor so no axe to grind.

Corrie - I don't live in Bucks. But what has been reported in the papers as the plan does look worrying to me from a dyspraxia perspective and I would be concerned if they adopted that test where I live. And I'd be concerned for all dyspraxics - we are constantly discriminated against as it is, and things seem to be getting worse rather than better. :(

For clarification - it's the NVR that is particularly concerning. The sad fact is that the maths syllabus throughout the NC - right up to GCSE level - has been changed over the years to disproportionately disadvantage kids with dyspraxia but we do have to live with that, and it starts being an issue before 11+ anyway. But NVR can be (doesn't have to be, but very often is) completely impossible for dyspraxics and many of the skills are actually irrelevant to being intelligent or to many (most) careers. After all, what does it actually matter that I have zero spatial awareness. Yes, I can't be a designer or an engineer. Boo Hoo.

I like the idea of not going beyond year 5 material in the test except for the fact that, again, that will disadvantage dyspraxics when it comes to maths.

I don?t live in Burk but if one day when changes take place in our county I hope it is true that the questions will not go beyond Year 5. But if this is really the case there may be huge increase in pass rate won?t it? It still doesn?t solve the problem of shortage in gs places?

I'm a tutor - I do not lurk.... and do not see anything changing much - you do not tutor to the 11+, you go through types of testing, how to respond to verbal reasoning type questions, mathematical problems, linguistic quizzes, science puzzles....

you cover exam technique, how to drop a hard question , FORGET it and go back after if you have the time - this is by far and away the hardest thing to get into a child's way of doing things as it goes against the grain to not do things in order.

And you tutor a subject or 2 as well (mine is Maths) - you don't just tutor to the 11+ or you would run out of steam after a month.....

(my own girls did not go for the test - we are lucky enough to have the "choice" of 3 perfectly good comprehensives round here - we are in the catchment for all 3. My girls thrive on being top of the heap, not middle - so the local comp suits them well....)

Russian ? I am not surprised as I said before I have known mums started preparing the babies for 11+ before potty training ?.. not an exaggeration! One of these mums is a state school teacher and now she is doing hours and hours of test papers with her ds every week.

Re: NVR does it not attach high status to logic? I speak to so many who tell me 'innate IQ' is all about NVR? Verbal reasoning is apparently all about exposure to words and no real skill needed.

When we talk about IQ we ascribe high status to ability to problem solve and complete maths puzzles.

It is very difficult to define IQ ! Even men and women work and think differently. NVR may be fair in some ways because it doesn?t require so much understanding of the English culture as comparing to VR.

Some aspects of NVR tests require spatial awareness and general visualisation skills which are usually (not always) an anathema for people with dyspraxia. Other aspects of NVR tests are completely fine - but so many people have such a poor understanding of dyspraxia that I would be concerned if my kids were taking such a test. When DD1 took her 11+ she was given an extra half hour to do the tests - that was the 'concession' for people with dyspraxia, same as for people with dyslexia. In fact, she didn't need extra time at all (the extra time worked completely against her) what she needed, for a level playing field, was some understanding of what dyspraxia actually is. Luckily she was fine even operating on a slopey playing field. But others might not have been.

People who tell you that IQ is all about the ability to visualise and work with pictures are either (a) ignorant about dyspraxia (and other conditions and indeed non visual forms of intelligence) (b) bad with words and/or numbers themselves or (c) both.

For me I don?t think there is ever going to be a fair 11+ test no matter what the authority comes up with. I don?t like 11+! I don?t believe in selective education! I certainly don?t trust the politicians design and run the state school system especially those who d never even been it themselves.

NVR is apparently the most easily coached for test and therefore the one under the most scrutiny atm.

And yet bucks is moving to NVR? I'm confused.

Believe me, it may be easily coachable for most people but not for those of us who see diagrams and weep. :(

I just looked at some sample verbal reasoning questions using the alphabets and codes and couldn't do any of them! Worrying

Totallybullshit I made it quite plain down thread if you look, that I don't think tutoring does have to be a negative experience. Obviously if it is done to remedy a weakness, or cultivate a talent, in a way that is inspiring, caring and effective, then it can benefit a child academically and psychologically. I grew up with a heavily dyslexic brother, when most schools did not acknowledge a diagnosis, let alone provide support. I still remember the name , Mr Houghton, of his patent and caring tutor, and the way he worked with the then very sparse tools at his disposal to help him. I see no problem with parents, or a tutor with the right skills and knowledge, if the parents don't want to or can't for whatever reason, helping to prepare a child for exams providing it is a positive experience, and kept within reasonable and humane limits, and provided it is consistent with what is actually required.

However all the features I have highlighted are symptoms of an unregulated tutoring industry that around here exploits parents anxiety and as a result children are subjected to miserable and negative educational experiences. Mostly it seems to involve being crammed around a kitchen table with several others, doing endless practise papers for a year or two, most parents I know say they know it was miserable and they would have hated it. At worst it was what was described by the poster below. (my post 22.55 last night) If you think that was defensible then no, you won't win with me. All this is in response to a supposedly untutorable test?

RussiansonTheSpree You presumably have an Ed Psych report, do you not submit that along with your application to explain any underperformance in any tests which might disadvantage Dyspraxics? In some ways I think VR / NVR tests more than level the playing field for Dyslexics, my family has a long history of swanning into Grammar Schools only to mystify and frustrate the teachers ever after (before Dyslexia was remotely understood)

Our school hasn't until now done NVR. VR isn't a problem for people with dyspraxia per se, the other two papers were English and maths - well, the maths curriculum is these days somewhat disproportionately weighted against people with dyspraxia but, you know, what can you do, they have to do GCSE and so they have just got to accept that the 'easy marks' might not be the ones they get. And move on.

DD1 does indeed have an ed psych report (several in fact). While both schools she has attended have had all the reports I remain entirely unconvinced that anybody has ever read them. (there isn't a 'you have to laugh or else you'd....do something else' smiley otherwise I'd use it here).

There was no reason deriving from the content of the tests she did, when she did her 11+, that her dyspraxia would have disadvantaged her (there weren't even any easy mark 'measure this line' 'estimate this' 'show that you can use a ruler' (she really can't, not even now!) type questions in the maths which was a result, as far as she was concerned). There were several reasons deriving from the conditions on the day that she was potentially, in my view (speaking as a dyspraxic myself) significantly disadvantaged. But it was fine anyway.

It has Russsians. It ditched NVR about 13 years ago.

I wasn't paying attention when DD1 was 2! We obviously had a lucky escape.

Copt: I tutored mine for 6 months. If a parent wants to hire a tutor for two years then why is that an example of unscrupulous tutors preying on anxious parents?

It is when they are advising anxious parents they need tutoring for two years to pass a test when there is no educational basis for that advice. It especially is when they advise, to repeat "one hour a week from Year 4, then he was given 3x 50 minute pieces of practice homework to do a week. He was given lists and lists of words to rote learn and if he got less than 90% in any test his tutors advised his mum to make him redo them aiming for a score of 95%. His parents were also advised not to go on holiday during the summer holidays at the end of year 5 but to spend the 6 weeks doing at least 5x 50 minute NVR and VR tests each day which they did."

Surely a scrupulous tutor will seek to reassure parents that, in the case of VR/ NVR, a couple of practise papers a week for around six months is going to achieve as much improvement as is proven by educational psychologists to be possible (actually probably less)?

When we were returning to the UK and my daughter was sitting selective school exams which tested a syllabus her International School would not have covered I sat down with an old teacher who agreed to tutor her (appropriately named Miss Smart) and she advised no more than a term of her working with her on literacy skills, a cosy hour with TV and cake in her living room, (her area of weakness, not diagnosed until later as dyslexia) and that we work together on some work books covering the Maths syllabus, her thing. She loved it and went into the exams confidant and got in everywhere. It is why I was so appalled by what I saw being done to my second daughter's peers when we went through the process back in the UK.

The tutor was pushing the child hard so that he/she was safe bet at 95%? What a bastard

We did what your tutor did except we condensed it into 6 months so i'm not rushing to condemn the guy.

Having been through it twice I tend to be when people tell how their DC barely needed tutoring. One mum went so far as to name her school. I looked it up and it was ranked 200 places below mine. If mine did her 11+ they wouldn't need much prep either.

Are there tutors out there who take your money knowing that the DC only had an outside chance? Of course but it's a bit ridiculous to malign a whole group of workers because of a few that lack principles.