So Eton, everything I expected and more

[JoanBias]

My DS is at a private school, so I have experience of private schooling, but my word Eton was like another world.

Not just the school, but the people there.

There was one prep school being shown around, all in tweed jackets, and to a boy the spitting image of Draco Malfoy (well there was one Chinese boy, but otherwise....).

One of the mothers doing the tour was not quite right in some respect, I'm not sure how but something wasn't wired up correctly or something. She was immacuately dressed, 6-inch heels (pretty daft considering the confirmation letter warns about having a long walk), but she was just bizarre. The admissions tutor said 'we have a waiting list of 80 boys and typically 35% of these will make it through', and she asked afterwards 'so 80% of the boys from the waiting list make it through?', and it was then explained again, but you could kind of hear the cogs going round and she clearly didn't get it. She had asked several other similar questions; e.g., it was explained that some Houses are catering and others go to a central cafeteria, so she then asked 'so they all eat in the cafeteria'? She pointed at the Fives Court and asked me 'what do they play here?' I said 'Fives' 'Is it squash?', she said. 'No, Eton Fives.' 'So is it squash?' It seemed as if this woman had had the benefit of the 'Finishing School for the Terminally Dim', because she was otherwise every inch the presentable upper middle-class wife.

Another family had a son who looked the prototypical pre-Etonian, and sure enough Daddy spent the tour braying on about his House when he had been there.

The facilities were extremely impressive, although they didn't bother to show us any of the academic parts, and basically the impression was 'if your son is incredibly pushy and self-motivated, send him here and we will teach him to be entitled'. They said 'every year we reject about a third of the highest performers on the test', essentially because they aren't pushy enough. (The House Mistresses seemed quite nice though.)

Fantastic training for future managing directors and whatever, but not for us.....

Well worth it to sign up for a tour, very illuminating. They take about 100 a day from what I can see, so obligation at all....

And I'm very happy to apologise if I ever suggested you had more than one username. People are forever suggesting that of others on here. It's no big deal and I supose I must have had a reason at the time (I absolutely don't remember mind you). Anyhow, sorry, since it evidently upset you.

peteneras' DS seems to a bit 50 years out of date. Brought this delightful Des O Connor record to mind:

Another Irishman taking the piss out of a Chinaman. But it's OK. . . it's not racist because he's 'someone famous'!

Yellow, I?m not upset. It takes more than an unseen face in cyberspace that I don?t know from Adam to upset me. It?s just that I?m staggered to find what to me is an obviously very educated person like yourself to freely assume things without any basis or foundation and take that as given. An identity change suggests that someone has something to hide, cannot be forthright, etc. Altogether very negative which is certainly not me.

Reminding you of your blunder - you were having some heated discussions with another MN?er re medical schools in London vs. Oxbridge ones. You know my take on this and when another MN?er came out with the same viewpoint as I, you automatically thought it was me talking. Perhaps you might consider not everybody agrees with you on everything?

However, I accept your apology. Thank you.

it's not racist cos it's 50 years old.

boschy - sorry, I didn't address your question. You're quite right, boys at Eton when they're fully settled in after a few months would not even have time to take a proper lunch (although there's a good 1 hour set aside each day to do so).

My DS had barely gone in a few weeks when he was pulled up together with his friend for their mischief-making. To be honest, I was very glad he was rightly discliplined with everything Eton could throw at him within the seriousness of the offence right at this early stage rather than later (in life). People at this forum tried to implicate Eton for the boys' behaviour but then they have their own ulterior motives. But like Happygardening said, even at Eton, there are free times too especially during the weekends when boys go outside the school for entertainment.

peterenas a namechange from Yellowstone to Yellowtip is clearly intended to preserve an id, not hide it.

Of course there are legitimate differences of opinion on the merits of the various med schools. Why parents feel the need to change tack so viciously after Oxford and Cambridge results come out though God only knows. Especially since these are only unseen faces in cyberspace. It gets quite silly really since it's so small minded. These things are decided on a hair since all candidates are so stupidly stellar. Your DS is clearly stellar peterenas. And I'm not one of those who think a silly phone call at 13 yrs old is either here or there. Mine have done sillier things I'm sure.

Maybe time to let go.

peterneras I?m staggered to find what to me is an obviously very educated person like yourself to freely assume things without any basis or foundation and take that as given. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" and all that .....

peterneras gated - kept in confinement in own room and barred from all school activities

It's not quite that - you aren't confined to your own room, and certainly in my day you could still play football / rugby / field game etc if you were in a school or house team. But otherwise all fun places are out of bounds.

Incidentally peterenas, now you do mention it I do recall the 'blunder'. It was a totally one way attack by a rather vicious poster on the quality of Oxford and Cambridge as medical schools and the consummate superiority of all other med schools esp London. I was (and am) completely laid back about this stuff and merely made a few comments about each to his own. You then appeared from nowhere and were equally vicious. The most ridiculous comment was that my family is dull as ditchwater because they've so far favoured a single university ( a 'one-trick pony'). The whole subject gets ridiculously personal for some reason and mirrors your take on Eton: no school other than the one your DS attends/ attended can possibly have any merits. You've simply now moved the process on to unis as well, which is at least as absurd.

Yellowtip, I don?t know what it is with you but you seem to be getting things all mixed up, confusing one MN?ner with another, and worse, putting words on perfectly innocent bystander?s mouth. I?m not even going to ask for an apology this time but this is the thread you?re referring to.

As you can see, you and another MN?er, genug, were having a go at each other for a good part of 3 weeks while I was nowhere near any of your quarrels. For some mysterious reasons, you then decided that genug was actually me and began throwing all your nonsense and insults at genug but with me, peteneras in your mind. This was when I decided that I should surface and tell you that you had made a blunder and all the nonsense and insults you had slung at me, i.e. genug/peteneras was one big serious case of mistaken identity on your part.

? You then appeared from nowhere and were equally vicious. The most ridiculous comment was that my family is dull as ditchwater because they've so far favoured a single university ( a 'one-trick pony').?

Yellow, the MN moderators may have deleted most of the postings between yourself and genug plus one of mine (I had only posted 2 comments on this particular thread - one deleted by MN and the other still exist), but that doesn?t give you a licence to twist the truth and defame me in calling my (deleted) post equally vicious and I?d labelled your family, ?dull as ditchwater? and a ?one-trick pony? - See 3rd message from the bottom who said that. It seems that you like to put words in my mouth.

Here?s the exact transcript of my deleted post together with the build-up to it by genug:

genug
yellow this is really sad, you've obviously had run ins with at least one other MNer and actually think I'm she!

Rudeness is your way, unlike you, I don't need to behave like you to shed light on your manners and other limitations. You're so helpful in that respect.

peteneras
Well, I can tell you it?s more than one MNer genug and it is indeed very sad. And I?m in total agreement with you.

There are obviously people who live in a runaway fantasy world for far too long and have allowed their imaginations to rule their head; taking assumptions as fact; Oxford is the be all and the end all and only they have sole monopoly of rudeness. And I have often wondered why do posters change their identity, e.g. from stone to tip - obviously something to hide and cannot risk being found out.

Someone please explain to me why do Oxbridge medics still come to London to train and finish their medical studies seeing that Oxbridge are the be all and the end all? Perhaps the answer lies in this what I call, London 10 - Oxbridge Nil article.

So please point to me where did I call your family ?dull as ditchwater? and a ?one-trick pony??

You trawled right back then peterenas? Wow. Was it worth it? Glancing back, what I say seems pretty grounded. Very grounded in fact. Particularly by comparison. It's important that kids from schools which don't come with the huge privilege that Eton does aren't put off applying to Oxford and Cambridge by the idea that the process is insumountable. My DC are all interested in the access work; me too.

You really need to let go. This isn't healthy and it isn't in any way related to the thread.

Who has said it's ok to take the piss out of an ethnic minority if you're famous?

If you base you ideas of what is right to do in the 'humour' line on what was considered acceptable back in the 60s and 70s you are going to end up being coarse, and crude, and focusing in an unhealthy way on ethnic minorities and blondes with big tits.

Happygardening, I have not personally worked on a building site but plenty of my relatives have, in all capacities from general labourer to foreman to supervising engineer. The kind of 'teasing' you described where ethnicity is the focus is not as appreciated as your DH seems to think it is. If he were teasing female workers because of their perceived difference from males he would be straying into sexual harassment territory and I am not sure if he is not doing the ethnic equivalent of that with the stupid mimicking of accents. Makes no difference if the underlings tease him right back. It makes for a horrible work environment when your outsider status (or your gender) is constantly pointed out to you and to your fellow workers. Your DH may not appreciate this as he is (1) the boss and (2) the insider.

As pointed out above -- the litmus test here is whether the workers could tell him to stop and whether he would stop and not hold them up to ridicule for that. If no-one has ever tried it is not necessarily because they all love having their quaint accents laughed at. Work in the construction industry is not easily come by these days. It is also unacceptable for your DH to put the onus on the workers to stop a boor in his tracks.

'..banter is part of the job.'
Just because it obv is on the site your DH runs doesn't make it right. 'Banter' covers a multitude, doesn't it? It used to be the case that 'banter' about female employees' bodies was an unquestioned part of workplaces too. And the importance of a recommendation for the next job always means the boss is taken to the pub even though he is possibly loathed. No tradesman, especially a self employed one, can afford to have the reputation of being 'standoffish' or 'can't take a joke' or 'doesn't mix well/doesn't go to the pub/doesn't buy a round'. A self employed tradesman has no comeback against someone like your DH and his 'banter' -- 'if they don't like it they can always pack up and go to the next (magical) job that awaits them' is a horrible position to be in.

There is a difference between being respected as a tradesman for your skills and being respected as the boss. The latter often means being allowed to get away with saying things he shouldn't because people are figuratively doffing their caps even if not literally when there is a next job to consider.

peteneras, did your son not get into Oxford last year then?

Cambridge Ponders. But both appear to be equally shit for Medicine.

Not sure if I want to join in this Oxbridge/medics thing, because I don't know any. But for what it's worth. I have two close relatives, one a vet the other an archaeologist. Both have employed Oxbridge grads, neither will do so again if it can be avoided. They say that whilst Oxbridge people have a vast fund of knowledge, are obviously very clever, they are no good at the everyday nitty-gritty - castrating a cat or trowelling a muddy trench. Consensus is that they are more fitted to research than to practical work. Perhaps medics are the same?
Oh, and the archaeologist has a higher degree from Oxford, taken as a mature student after a couple of decade working in the field.

But that's the sort of personal anecdote that adds no weight at all to any argument and tends to be a lazy reinforcement of stereotypes, Kerrygrey.

There are, I'm willing to bet, about as many different types of people studying at Oxford and Cambridge as there are at other universities - some lazy, some practical, some with brilliant interpersonal skills, some shy, some academic and introverted, some academic and extroverted, some sporty, some risk-takers, some conservative, some party goers, some thin, some overweight, some gay, some straight.... Oh, you get my point. The only thing they all have in common is that they met a particular academic threshold at a particular time and got a place that they then took up.

Perhaps your relatives just made a poor choice of employee and didn't carry out their due diligence.

For what it's worth (absolutely nothing), I know loads of Oxford and Cambridge graduates, since DH went to one place and I and my brother to the other, and you see in them the usual mix of 'life outcomes' - some very successful and well known in their chosen careers, some having drifted from job to job, some modestly successful in what they want to do, some fabulously rich, some relatively poor but pursuing religion/ social work/ academic studies/ creative writing, some in happy relationships, some with children. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

?You trawled right back then peterenas? Wow. Was it worth it??

Worth every word of it, Yellow, just to prove everything you wrote on MN is taken with a tablespoon of salt, as far as I?m concerned - 5 DC at Oxford; clean up with 6A* at A2 and all that . . .

Btw, it?s not all that difficult to recall past messages and everything that I posted (even deleted ones) if your life is as organised as mine.

?peteneras, did your son not get into Oxford last year then??

No, Ponders, simply because he didn?t apply. Like I said, not everybody is crazy about Oxford. I love it myself, for nostalgic reasons more than anything else.

Unfortunately, my kids have other ideas especially DS who is now very much his own man and stubborn as a mule (c?mon everybody, blame it on the School he attended! ). I thought his academics and sportsmanship would suit Oxford to a ?T?, but then that?s only me thinking, what do I know?

DS comes from a big family of medics and hopefully in a few years time will become the 9th medical doctor in addition to 5 dentists, in the immediate family of uncles/aunties and first cousins. And I?m not even counting the ward sisters and nurses yet! So he?s had plenty of advice (not to mention the tons of medical books) which medical school(s) would suit him. None mentioned Oxbridge! Got to say he?s happy as Larry in his current London school, thank you very much, though he tells me the course is very tough. Apparently, some 15% of his peers from last year have now gone - either failed the exams or just simple vanished!

?Consensus is that they are more fitted to research than to practical work. Perhaps medics are the same??

In our long discussion(s) during DS?s UCAS application days, his final words were, ?I want to be a doctor at the business end of a theatre pulling lives back from the brink - not banged up within 4 walls fiddling with test-tubes!?

Or it might just simply vanished!

singersgirl - of course it's a personal anecdote, I haven't done extensive research - how could I? Most of what you get on MN is anecdote. And it isn't a case of only one employee. Due diligence now will put Oxbridge applicants at a disadvantage. A pity, maybe, but what would you..

kerry it is a fairly breathtaking generalsation!

peterenas I've never said five DC are at Oxford if only because only four have gone through the UCAS process to date. I've no idea whether DC5 intends to apply and I'm not going to push it, it's entirely his choice. He'd very likely prefer it elsewhere.

If you don't want people here to know where your DS applied, you shouldn't reveal it contemporaneously on the relevant UCAS thread! As I understand it you're slagging off both Oxford and Cambridge Medicine, is that correct?

London students can't do Clinical at Oxford or Cambridge, it isn't an option (that's certainly correct for Oxford, not absolutely certain about Cambridge). And there aren't enough places for all Oxford and Cambridge undergraduates to continue to Clinical, so some have to go elsewhere. That isn't to say no-one positively opts for London, I'm sure they do. London is excellent.

Your DS was obviously very fortunate both to have an Eton education and to have all those medical connections to offer advice. We're pond feeders by comparison with only two doctors in the family, both dead. I hope that not many other Eton parents like to diminish the achievements of the pond feeders though - what's it to you that he got 6A*?

You didn't answer the question about whether your Eton son is a 'yes man' because he too has multiple A*s? You implied only 'yes men' get these, when the thread was more sensibly focussed on what Little said about the twit who couldn't scrape more than a U, on account of his brilliance.

I meant to say also that one very, very big plus of reading Medicine at Oxford or Cambridge is that the drop out/ kick out rates are minute compared to those elsewhere. 15% is horrendous, poor kids.