All this QTS stuff - do you REALLY know what it means? Here's the truth...

[Itchyandscratchy]

Right - I'd like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but until today I misunderstood what the new ruling from the Govt about unqualified teachers and QTS is actually going to mean.

Forgive me my ignorance if you have already realised this:

Schools have been employing unqualified teachers - teachers without BEds, PGCEs, GTP, etc. for years. So the ruling about academies being able to emply unqualified teachers is not new.

So, even if you were unqulaified, you would still need to work towards Qualified Teacher Status within a set amount of time. QTS is 'proved' with a folder of evidence that shows each of these standards have been met.

QTS, as linked to in one of my previous posts (on the 'What every parents needs to know' thread) makes sure standards in the stuff you can't be 'naturally good at' are met: safeguarding, quality of teaching, subject knowledge and application; all the standards outlined in the QTs framework.

The QTS have been reviewed for Sept 2012 and will, IMHO, for the first time actually attempt to ensure standards are met in a meaningful way, with evidence needed.

So in this way, even OVER-qualified crap teachers will have to prove themselves as much as under-qualified great teachers.

QTS is the link that would hopefully bridge the gap between competence and qualification. In this way, IN THEORY, we should be confident that our fears about unqualified teachers are allayed. It will also mean that - for the first time - we might be a little more confident that the minority of teachers who do not care about the learning of their students are called to account without a lengthy and mostly unsuccessful competency procedure.

The Govt's announcement actually means that QTS is no longer required.

An unqualified person can now not only secure a job teaching your child, they are no longer required to prove that they are acapable of meeting those standards at any time in the future.

I realise I have probably been extremely thick in only just fully understanding this, but I'm guessing a few other people might be as well, and this is for them.

Scary isn't it?

And Trinity St David wants 260-340 points
We have students with offers well below that.

We have been sending students to these colleges for some years now. Maybe they just like our students? They always get similar offers. They are always around 180/200 UCAS points.

Many of our students will not make these points up with straight A levels. They use a number of other certificates that carry UCAS points too. Things I am not familiar with - Junior Sports Leadership? for one. .

York St John's. I went to the UCAS site.

Well if you go to the wrong place, you may well get a different answer.

jabed We recognise the value of learning that takes place outside formal education institutions. Those who do not have UCAS points, but do have other qualifications and relevant experience will be considered on an individual basis

This could apply to mature students who don't have UCAS points, but could have other qualifications and experience.

This could apply to mature students who don't have UCAS points, but could have other qualifications and experience.

I think it can apply to any student. I am not the admissions tutor.

See my post above about how we make up the UCAS points. Its all outside the classroom. Our students take a lot of experience of teaching in with them usually.

Jabed - are the students your school is sending off to these places with poor academic qualifications planning to teach at primary level or secondary level? Or in other settings? What are they planning to teach at the end of the process?

I remember when I was at school we had a teacher teaching Maths and some of the students explained to her that she was wrong and she told us she wasn't a Maths teacher and we were confused.

When she came back a few months later she was teaching Geography and one of the students said, 'You were a rubbish Maths teacher,' and she said, 'I know.'

Now we were in what would be called now Year 7 and we noticed.

It's really sad that some of the weaker ability children are getting teachers that are not ideal for them. Having the training, the support from those more experienced from you, the subject knowledge makes a difference.

I have principles and I would not work in any capacity as a teacher if I did not feel I was up to the job. I have a degree in two subjects and could teach both those subjects but I it would still take ages and support to get the knowledge and practice needed to teach them effectively at KS3-5. My PGCE specialism is in my Masters subject and I do not know every possible topic known to man within it but could teach it to KS3 will lesser work and at KS4 and KS5 with more. But there are subjects I could never teach at KS3 and beyond and wouldn't for all the tea in China.

But Jabed, we were discussing students from the 6th form at your school. Unless you're going to claim that your school has a programme for mature students who do not have academic qualifications, that bit is completely irrelevant. My looking up entry requirements was a direct result of your claim that two or three students PER YEAR from the 6th form at your school get offers of places on ITT courses with only 2 A Levels.

Which St John's should I be looking at then?

And things like JSLA don't carry that many points. Furthermore, the universities specify how many points MUST be from A Levels. It's all on the UCAS website.

We also have one student going to Oxford with predicted 3A A levels and 2A AS but she has no GCSE's at all. No equivelant. Nothing. She was HE until she came to us to "go to Oxford"

Trinity says that a minimum of 240 points must be from A Levels. That's CCC.

It is perfectly possible that certain institutions build up relationships with certain schools- I am not going to deny that. I still dispute your figure of 3 or 4 we year going on to ITT with only 2 A Levels though.

Flexybex. I am talking about a PgCE gained in 2009. With practice until 2011. Thats hardly education in the dark ages. I beg to differ about the so called crap ITT/PGCE's being in the past, they are most evidently in the present.

3 mums from dds last school have recently completed a primary PGCE at a famous uni for ITT. From all accounts it is how many have described on here. I know from conversations that none of them have A levels and know one has a degree in Design (I mean fabric). I don't mean to knock her as she made me the most beautiful cushions, but bless she's not too bright.
I think that many do primary PGCE's because they are told they are good enough, as I know all three of these ladies had reservations to begin with. The strange thing is they all have QTS. The one who makes cushions got a job in a really good school/ great catchment and eventually moved her dc there. We joked of the extent some people would go to to get dcs into a good school. She was in on the joke, I'm not talking bitching here. She would be the first to admit her English is nothing to write home about.

Jabed

Now I am totally confused a girl in sixth form who was in HE? I really don't get it at all.

Are you still working in the independent school because that's a completely different world?

Jabed - are the students your school is sending off to these places with poor academic qualifications planning to teach at primary level or secondary level? Or in other settings? What are they planning to teach at the end of the process?

Mostly primary.

Different courses and subjects for others.
As I recall we have had PE, English, RE and Geography in the past.

I am sorry if this revelation shatters everyones starry eyes but its reality.

I am beginning to think I shouldnt have mentioned it now. Obviously others are not getting the same treatment.

QT, I think he meant Home Ed not Higher Ed.

Which St John's?

She was Home Educated up until she came to sixth form two years ago. She had no formal qualifications when she came to us. She applied for a scholarship. Passed the entrance exams and we took her. Ditto Oxford.

Which St John's, Jabed, if not York?

What revelation, jabed? I'm lost.

But Jabed, we were discussing students from the 6th form at your school

Yes, sixth form in an independent school

Unless you're going to claim that your school has a programme for mature students who do not have academic qualifications

No, we do not have mature students. The oldest we have may be 19 when they leave (often overseas students who are back classed a year when they arrive - but not all overseas students fall into that category)

We do not do courses other than A level in sixth form (and some GCSE re sits) We have a broad extracurricular programme as do most independents.

But these students are generally 18 when they go off to university. I know a lot of them get good offers from the universities they apply to. Head of Sixth often says it to us. It is apparently testimony to our teaching and the impressiveness of the students.

Jabed

Well if she is home educated it makes a difference and the fact that you said she applied for a scholarship, says it all, it's an independent school and independent schools have, shall we say, different or better relationships with unis than most mainstream state schools.

I've worked in undergraduate recruitment in top universities prior to being a teacher and experienced things that can only happen to students from independent schools. One girl had a BBC and we told her she could not attend as we needed BBB. She said, 'I'll ring the HT.' We said it had to be in by 5 o/c. She asked for our fax number and we got a fax within a hour from the examining board stating she had an B!

Now I was in a state of shock and the other admin assistant said it happens all the time.

Independent schools are different.

I've found it now- Marjon Plymouth. Yes,minimum requirement of 2 A Levels, but 240 points so they would both need to be at A* . Doesn't exactly do well in league tables of training institutions though.

Jabed - you just contradicted yourself. You posted (and highlighted) info which stated that the ITT course your students routinely get onto with fewer than 3 A Levels is happy to consider applicants who haven't gone down the usual academic route. Then you state that your school just does A Levels.

Evil. Maybe the ITT providers take people from other schools as well as the one jabed teaches at.

Jabed - you just contradicted yourself. You posted (and highlighted) info which stated that the ITT course your students routinely get onto with fewer than 3 A Levels is happy to consider applicants who haven't gone down the usual academic route. Then you state that your school just does A Levels.

I think the bit I was trying to indicate was the last line - each case is considered on individual merits. It doesnt have to be A levels. It doesn?t have to be any qualifications. It doesn?t have to be 3 A levels and it certainly doesn?t have to be the standard UCAS offer on the web site.

OK so they are no big deal according to some but 90% of their graduates get employment in teaching. As far as I am aware all of our previous students who have graduated, have got jobs.

I sometimes wonder why you need to sniff at what works.

MTPP - um, that was the point I was making...

Jabed - I'm not sniffing at anything. That's your job, usually, like when you claimed that everyone you work with trained at one of the top two training institutions. It seems you now manage to recognise that other institutions do indeed exist.

I will take your word for it then. It certainly doesn't fit with my own experiences as a Head of 6th Form. The students who applied for ITT this year went through by far the most stringent application process.