All this QTS stuff - do you REALLY know what it means? Here's the truth...

[Itchyandscratchy]

Right - I'd like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but until today I misunderstood what the new ruling from the Govt about unqualified teachers and QTS is actually going to mean.

Forgive me my ignorance if you have already realised this:

Schools have been employing unqualified teachers - teachers without BEds, PGCEs, GTP, etc. for years. So the ruling about academies being able to emply unqualified teachers is not new.

So, even if you were unqulaified, you would still need to work towards Qualified Teacher Status within a set amount of time. QTS is 'proved' with a folder of evidence that shows each of these standards have been met.

QTS, as linked to in one of my previous posts (on the 'What every parents needs to know' thread) makes sure standards in the stuff you can't be 'naturally good at' are met: safeguarding, quality of teaching, subject knowledge and application; all the standards outlined in the QTs framework.

The QTS have been reviewed for Sept 2012 and will, IMHO, for the first time actually attempt to ensure standards are met in a meaningful way, with evidence needed.

So in this way, even OVER-qualified crap teachers will have to prove themselves as much as under-qualified great teachers.

QTS is the link that would hopefully bridge the gap between competence and qualification. In this way, IN THEORY, we should be confident that our fears about unqualified teachers are allayed. It will also mean that - for the first time - we might be a little more confident that the minority of teachers who do not care about the learning of their students are called to account without a lengthy and mostly unsuccessful competency procedure.

The Govt's announcement actually means that QTS is no longer required.

An unqualified person can now not only secure a job teaching your child, they are no longer required to prove that they are acapable of meeting those standards at any time in the future.

I realise I have probably been extremely thick in only just fully understanding this, but I'm guessing a few other people might be as well, and this is for them.

Scary isn't it?

QT.
Maybe Teachfirst teachers are training. But I have to disagree with PGCE and GTP . Students have their own classes from day one. They do all their own planning, resources, assessments, marking, schemes, plans etc. They do pretty much the same as the qualified teacher.
Sometimes those who are not given all these responsibilities from the outset are monitored and mentored by an NQT without QTS, so not exactly an advantage.

No they don't morethan.
There is an incremental programme for the percentage of the weeks' lessons taught by the student.
They are mentored by a teacher and the teacher helps and advises with planning, marking, etc.
They are students and are treated as such.

Here's a random GTP course information sheet I googled, so that people can check facts about the course:Northampton

If you read it, you will notice that it refers to training with the university, visiting tutors, practice at two schools, schools mentors, QTS standards, etc, etc. All of this teacher training is leading to QTS status after a successful NQT year.
In no way are GTP students used as unQTS.

mtpp - you're wrong. Both PGCE and GTP students are just that students. They are not expected to do all the schemes of work, lesson plans etc by themselves. You quite clearly don't know what you're talking about.

In my first TP (this is going back 15 years) I think I did a 50% timetable, plus mentoring sessions with both my school mentor and my subject mentor. In my second TP my teaching load was higher, but not a full timetable at all. I qualified in the freak period between the end of the probationary year and the introduction of the NQT year but even so, in my first full year as a QT I didn't have a full timetable, had an allocated mentor and plenty of help with planning. Even now, as a head of dept, I don't expect each member of my dept to write their own schemes of work- why reinvent the wheel?

morethan,

I agree with FB. I and other student teachers i.e. TeachFirst, GTPs, RTs had to wait and watch for a while BEFORE being allowed to do our first starter, then a main activity. Student teachers usually help out or act as TAs whilst we learn. We weren't less loose when we arrived. I have no idea what you have been through but every post I've read of your experiences in teaching and teacher training is totally against all the KNOWN rules. I mean teaching A level Maths when you haven't even got a GSCE or O Level in it! Totally unheard of. But somehow you've managed to find unscrupulous schools that breaks EVERY teaching rule know to man and hold that up as the standard practice.

Even if I was offered a job teaching a subject that was totally out of my depth and I was in dire poverty I WOULD NOT DO IT and I would report being offered it to my union, my MP, to the DfE and to the Teaching Agency.

Why? Because I care about children and I care about education. It is unfair on the children to have someone who is a lesson further than them teaching them. It impacts on their potential. They would do far better having a subject specialist with QTS teach them, that's why.

You and others have accused us ie. QTs with QTS of not caring about the children. If you cared and care about children how could you have agreed to teach subjects that you had no expertise in?

Agree, Flexy. In my last PGCE placement I worked alongside a GTP student. He had a heavier class load than me, but not a full timetable. He had a mentor, regular observations, the same paperwork load, the same Q standards to pass, the same visits from university tutors and attended the same professional development programme as me and the other PGCE student. As the crucial thing about gaining QTS is collecting evidence that you have met the standards, the fact that the routes to doing this are slightly different depending on whether you do Teach First, GTP or PGCE followed by NQT year is barely relevant. The point is that in order to qualify as a teacher you have effectively trained for FIVE YEARS, whichever route you follow.
And I have never heard of anyone being mentored by an NQT.

In fact when training, I was asked to do a SoW without any support in planning on a topic I was not familiar with. I went to the Professional Mentor, the person in charge of all the school mentors to complain and he ensured that my school mentor supported me. I needed that support especially with how to break down the knowledge to Y8 students. Of course I did the detailed subject knowledge work and wrote out all the lesson plans etc. but needed help in planning a series of lessons and providing a consistent learning objective throughout and putting in the assessment criteria etc. I would never have been able to do it sucessfully without expert help.

I knew the rules and if a schools isn't doing what they should, as an intelligent person, you speak up about it.

Exactly QT, and our university tutors were also very supportive of us and prepared to step in and lay down the law if a trainee was having difficulty with a school who weren't doing what they should - one of the many reasons why PGCE works well.

Re, if i was offered a contract to teach a subject in a State maintained school that was out of my depth

I would also complain to Ofsted and the LA. I think that would have sorted it!

Healthy dose of cynicism, not bitterness.

Why should I be the one to retire? I am not complaining. I am not objecting to the changes. I am willing to adapt and to work within. Those who do not like it and want to complain, whinge and go on about it are the ones who need to retire surely?

I can tell you quite categorically that 2 A levels would not get a candidate onto a BEd course

Stop pretending that you know things when you clearly don't, Jabed. You come across as a fool

I will state categorically that it does. Over the past three years my school has had three or four students each year who have entered B.Ed Courses with two A levels or an average UCAS of around 180 points. Most of our students do very well and may get three A levels Some get four but we also have more challenged pupils who have managed only two at the end and they have gone to B.Ed.

Jabed- I don't believe you. Unless you can tell me which universities these were, I shall assume you are lying. Of course, you are not going to give me specifics, are you, because you never do. FWIW, I also don't believe that your school allows students to only do 2 A Levels - given that you claim to teach in a decent independent school. Students only sitting 2 A Levels damages a school's APS, and independent schools, more than state, value their spot in the league tables.

And students taking more than 2 A Levels but not passing them? Goodness, your school sixth form must be shockingly bad. And this happens year on year?

And Jabed - regarding your jibe about my worthless first class honours degree - I am in my mid-forties, have had a very successful career in a highly competitive industry before going into teaching, and I actually have two degrees - and the new graduates that I trained with this year were just as clever, and motivated as my contemporaries at the very prestigious university I attended in the 1980s. They will all be excellent teachers

So you have two degrees? One was not good enough then? A successful career? Why change? O know you are so dedicated to teaching and you know all about it.

You are all so clever. All with firsts. And of course all from Oxbridge too no doubt (as usual on MN) .

Firsts were rare many a long year ago (double firsts like the one I gained even rarer - I was the first in five years in my College). A 2:1 was a top performance in many instances and a ":2 was a "good " degree

I can still recall with amazement the meeting I went to at the end of the 1980's when we ( uni lecturers) were told that in future we would award 10% of each cohort a 1st and half of the rest a 2:1.

Things haven?t been the same since. It was grade inflation.

And you all worked so hard on that PGCE and you are all going to have such brilliant careers?

Come back and tell me in five years time (that?s roughly how long half the PGCE trained teachers last in the job).

You have worked hard on reduced timetables.

You think old ones like me haven?t worked? I have had a walk in the park for thirty years have I? When you have worked in inner city schools, special measures schools and stood the test of time doing it on a full timetable and a daily basis, then tell me how clever you are and how you have a brilliant career. You will have earned some respect for sticking at it at least.

Forgive my cynicism. I have been around the block too many times. Seen it and done it. But I still go back and I do it again (and again) and I wont complain of have beefs about it either.

Evil.
I don't always agree with Jabed, but to call somebody a liar does not help people to see the full picture. Some of the things I have said on these threads go against the usual grain, but I too am not a liar.

For example I have no GCSE's or A levels. I do have a degree though. The PgCE I took attracted QTLS not QTS and illegally and now legally I am apparentley allowed to teach Ks3. This may seem unbelievable to some but it doesn't make me a liar.

And students taking more than 2 A Levels but not passing them? Goodness, your school sixth form must be shockingly bad. And this happens year on year?

No, we have some students who we take in who only take 2 A levels from the outset. Their parents request it. Whilst the school is partly selective, we take weaker students too. Very often students who many state schools would turn down because they say they will fail ( or rather be failed by them). So good job done there too.

Jabed, I asked you earlier on if you meant to be rude. I take that back. You clearly did. I would like to know why, though, if you are so dedicated to the teaching profession, you are happy to pour such scorn on those of us who have more recently chosen to join it.

And the reason I have two degrees, btw, is because when I decided I would like to teach, I realised that to be the teacher I wanted to be I should have a degree in the subject I wanted to teach. So I went and got one, rather than whinged on about how I should be allowed to teach without bothering with the formalities.

Qualified Teacher. You were very lucky to have the support you did. However, please don't assume this is common place as you can see from my previous threads, it certainly isn't. Yes of course we complained, but were told if we stood any chance of getting a job to keep our mouths shut and get on with it. "After all you'll always know more than the kids, so don't worry" I kid you not.

I would also complain to Ofsted and the LA. I think that would have sorted it

Yes, very quickly. They would know your name and you wouldn?t be in the job long in my experience. Seen it happen. Those who last longest are those who quietly get on with it and keep a low profile. An army friend of mine calls it ?being the grey man".

Another of my practical cynicisms gained from many years of lasting out in the education system.

And I have never heard of anyone being mentored by an NQT

Oh yes, that does happen. In my last school we had an NQT in SMT. She also mentored a student that year. I did comment on it once but being a grey man I kept it low profile. But it certainly happens.

I meant to add , I don't dispute any of you are very knowledgable regarding PGCEs and other ITT. However, just because something is supposed to be done in a particular way and indeed by law, please don't presume this is the norm and that all teachers prior to Gove were employed with regard to the law. Otherwise you are calling all those who didn't experience what you did liars. Thats ok by me because I and most other people I know who experienced the same as me don't feel the need to justify ourselves. I don't care how experienced you are you only have your experience a very narrow view to discuss. As do I or anybody else for that matter.

I do have one question, with all these complaints from teachers with QTS how can parents be assured that their dcs education won't suffer due to the behaviour of QTs towards none QTS. I would be asking this question if my dd was at school.

I also had a torrid time in my PGCE/NQT year 18 years ago, with very little help and support.
However this thread is based on current practice, not experiences from 20 years ago. I know that progress in a student teacher's training is rigorously checked against standards by the student herself, the university tutor and one (or two) school mentors.

Historically, things may have been crap. The fact is that they're not now.

Your previous school employed someone who hadn't completed their induction year as a Senior Manager?

For example I have no GCSE's or A levels. I do have a degree though. The PgCE I took attracted QTLS not QTS and illegally and now legally I am apparentley allowed to teach Ks3. This may seem unbelievable to some but it doesn't make me a liar

I can corroborate this. I have taught many undergraduates without formal qualifications. Mnay had taken access courses. Some we had through widening participation. Of course the OU has always had such students.

It is also true that since last year QTLS has been accepted as a qualified status in schools. In fact Give didn?t say QTLS and it?s not in the documentation. It was simply "from immediate effect all FE qualified teachers will be able to work as qualified teachers in maintained schools". This was in accordance with the Wolfe report.

I dont think it worked quite that fast getting through but it is the case. FE teachers are now accepted as qualified to work in schools on the same basis as school teachers ( QTS).

Jabed- please don't try to make out that you have taught in a huge variety of state schools (inc inner city & special measures schoolS) for over 30 years- anyone who has read more than one thread you have been on knows that this is an exaggeration (and I'm being kind there, as I think you know)

No surprise that you won't elaborate on the three or four students PER YEAR who have got onto ITT B.Ed courses from your school with only two A Levels.

MTTP- I would argue that Jabed does none of us any favours with his inconsistent and inaccurate assertions.