taking children out of school for holidays is ILLEGAL

[zippitippitoes]

interesting news report here \link{http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2075270,00.html\ High Court Ruling}

so will anybody still be taking those unauthorised breaks and days off?

Will schools get tougher

and does your school say no at the moment?

Bit different to saying "they're my kids and I'll take them on holiday whenever I want" though isn't it?

Big Brother government.

want me to whack them for you MI?

(But then I've posted before that the whole idea of families and family time makes my skin crawl. Just writing those words has made me shudder, blueeecuh).

In answer to Beatie's question for parents who do work...

My dh and I both work, but we are very very lucky in that I work days and he works evenings and weekends. During the holidays Dh has the children during the day while I'm at work then he goes to work in the evenings. Our annual holiday usually consists of going to London in the summer holidays for a fortnight on a cheap flight and staying with FIL who lives there. On the odd occasion when we go abroad which has only been twice in the past 12 years, once in 2002 and once in 2005, we save and save and save every single penny we have so as to be able to afford it and miss our holiday to London as we can't afford to do both.

This year our annual holiday will be 4 days in France for a family wedding. Unfortunatley through no fault of our own this is in September and dd1 will be back at school by then but seeing as it's a family wedding I'm hoping that the school won't make too much of a fuss about it after all it's not our fault it's in term time. There will be no trip to London this year as the cost of flights to France for 4 of us, from Scotland is astronomical and that's before we've even thought about accommodation, clothes, present etc and we can't afford to do both.

Oh to be well paid enough to be able to afford 2 or 3 holidays a year, but if I was I'd still take them in school holiday time .

Talking of saving up hard to take a holiday - I'd love to love to know how many people do this rather that whacking the cost on credit cards or taking out loans. Or do most people do a mixture of saving and borrowing? As dh and I do not have credit cards (mostly through choice) I do not know the answer to this.

Anyway, my point is, if you are on a modest income with little access to credit, the difference between a £500.00 holiday and a £2,000 holiday may be impossibly huge. If you don't have credit cards (because your credit rating is too low, your job is classed as casual or temporary or your income is not high enough) and can't take out loans based on the equity in your home (because you rent it), and don't have the sort of bank account that allows you overdrafts, your access to credit is severely cut. If you want to spread the cost of your holiday over many months (or years) you don't have nearly as many credit options open to you.

And if you have had to scrimp and save to afford a holiday and pay everything up front, arriving at your destination with just a minimal amount of spending money and nothing to fall back on, you may think that's just too big a risk for your family. What happens if there's an emergency? you may be faced with medical costs, garage costs or extra travel costs - things you can claim back eventually but may have to pay up front? No putting the costs on your credit card.

So I think custy's post about this law hitting familes on low incomes is spot on. Higher costing holidays in term time are much more viable if you have access to credit, even if it's just an emergency back up.

You may say you can find cheaper UK holidays when schools break up, but IME nearly all holiday prices, apart from a very few, go up a lot. Even an extra £200 could make a holiday a financial struggle at best, or an impossibility at worst, if you have no credit to fall back on.

I meant of course 'Higher costing holidays in school holiday time are much more viable if you have access to credit'

This is our 1st hol abroad since having the children (we have 3 under 6). In previous yrs we have had low cost hols mainly caravans - but I have always been completely shocked by the prices of these hols - you probably could have a cheap hol abroad for the amnt - they are not a cheap option and esp in schl hols. I don't think there is a cheap option anymore. I stand by what I said way down and what others have said - if holiday companies would sort out the price rises in schl hols a large part of the problem would dissappear...........

Is it against someones human rights to deny them a holiday.... that appears to be what people are implying. Term-time holidays were unheard of when I was at school, as were annual foreign holidays. Abroad is cheaper now, even when it is peak times, it's just our expectations are higher. Couples have had children after they've got used to holidays themselves and it's not something they're willing to do without.

I'm not convinced it's about family time or spending more time with your children. My children are too young for me and DH to feel like a holiday is really a holiday. It's just more hard work in a more stunning location. We recognise holidays will only be restored to a semblance of their forner self when our children are old enough to join kids clubs or go off and amuse themselves for 2 hours so we can read more than a page of a book.

If family time were such a treasured commodity, people should be jumping up and down with joy about INSET days.

As for not putting your children in school whilst the teacher is present to teach, I liken it to not turning up for an NHS appointment!

And I say all of this in a position of not being able to afford an annual, August jaunt in a foreign country.

Well my holidays are a lot different than yours beatie, I have 2 pre school age children, we have never put them in a kids club and I cant see that we ever will. Our holidays are true family holidays and I cant see the bunging the kids in the kids club is a true family holiday. Our holidays are mainly for the kids, and us doing things with them. We tend to go for quite active holidays. A holidays lying by a pool reading a book is quite alien to me, I'm sure I would love it but we have never quite managed that kind of holiday, even without kids....

My dh works long hours, weekends as I'm sure a lot of others dh's do on here. He cant take advantage of Inset days and he does look forward to spending a week doing things with our girls.

I think term time hols were unheard of when I was at schl as well (I'm 37) though I wouldn't swear to it.I think my parents would have done it if they'd had no choice becasue of work or money. However, I think what most pple are objecting to is being told that taking children out of schl is "illegal" - the black and whiteness of it, the nannying of it that grates. Most sensible pple (and I mean not 3 times in an acadmeic yr) are capable of making decisions for their own children which are compatible with still getting a good education. Just like you would do your best to turn up to an NHS appt, you do you best to find a holdiay out of term time, but you shouldn't be expected to put it above all other concerns just because somebody says its the right thing to do.

I agree it's expectations, today's have it now society etc

And holidays are in fact cheap now and readily available in a way they never were before which is why this arises. Far more people go on holidays every year and lots go for more than one big holiday and weekends away. It's fitting them in that is hard that's why they take place in term time.

I think we are taking about too wide an argument again. I do not think its a "have it now society" greedy symptom to have one holiday per yr. If that has to be in term time because all other options don't work, so be it. If its 3 hols in term time, thats just plain daft.

Jenkel, my holidays are 'family' holidays, in that they have to revolve around the children. I probably won't use kids clubs either but do look forward to my children being able to engross theselves in a game with new-found friends so that I can have some peace. That doesn't mean I won't also do activities with the children. I just don't see why a week away in a different setting is the only way parents can enjoy their families.

Niceglasses – it seems unfortunate that this issue does have to be a black and white one but that is because too many parents have interpreted the grey area to mean the 10 days of authorised term-time absence is an automatic entitlement to take their children out of school for a few more holidays.

If everyone did it, schools would be in a permanent state of disorder. Surely you can see how allowing parents to do this willy-nilly will create a slippery slope. And more and more parents will start to do it each year.

BTW - I would expect the 'exceptional circumstances' to scoop up those who can't take their holidays during holiday period because their spouse works in an exceptional field which means school-holidays and annual leave never coincide.

zipitippitoes, I really cannot agree that 'holidays are cheap now' - even ones in the school term. Ok, cheaper yes but cheap, no. dh and I both work, I have looked at all sorts of holiday options over the years, but few are what I'd call cheap. We certainly couldn't afford to take have an annual holiday and a few weekends away with the children, unless we stayed with friends and family.

even if the terms were made shorter and only 37 weeks spent in school then people would still say it was not possible to go on holiday in the school holidays

In our family, a holiday is the only chance that DH gets to spend a whole week with my kids. He works long hours/weekends and doenst get to take much holiday. I think this is one of the problems of the UK, the work/family balance certainly in DH's industry is not good. We are considering emigrating to get away from this. So a booked holiday is a way of forcing himself to spend time with us all, not that he doesnt want to, thats why we do it as he enjoys it so much. Its good for him, its good for me, its good for the kids.

As I have said before, I would support the school, I would send them in prepared for a day of education, good breakfast, good night sleep, they are generally well behaved, they would only take sickness if really necessary. Some parents do none of this, how much time is taken off in unnecssary sickness, how much time is wasted in bad behavour, how many kids go to school too exhausted to concentrate.

So taking all this into account, how can 1 weeks holiday be bad.

I meant cheap as in affordable for many more people, the market is flooded with holiday possibilities which didn't exist 30 years ago (or even 15 years ago there were nothing like the number of holiday homes there are now). The number of holidays bought now is way way higher than ever in the past.

we used to take ours out (in the old days ) at the end of the school year when they don't do much - 2 have got degrees, one dropped out and is now a plod

oh sorry, that was anecdotal wasn't it

er I don't know about children not taking term time holidays in the "old days" - they certainly used to at my school. lots of workplaces would close down for a fortnight (factories etc) so children would be taken out then to further their education on the fun fairs and penny arcades
also children were taken out to help on farms/family businesses etc at peak times
this isn't THAT long ago...

now my dd is only little so i havnt had this problem yet, but at the moment we are on a severly low income, we went on one holiday last year for a week to hastings as this was all we could afford, and even then it had to be paid/saved for over the previous year as that was the only way we could afford it!

i didnt have to take dd out of school because as i say she is only little but there is no way we would have been able to pay for a holiday during the school holidays as the prices increase by about 150%!!! but when she is at school if the only holiday we will get is during school time then so be it, i think it will be far more beneficial for her to spend quality time with her family and catch up on the work later than to miss out. if that was innappropriate (very important school work etc.) then our holidays would be daddy taking time off during school holidays and we spend it at home together, as this would be the limit of our budget.

im not sure what im trying to express but i do feel a holiday is important, not just for them to have a break but for them to spend time with their parents, one at least of which they probably dont see a lot of.

factory shutdown down here is always in August

Well, a few reasons why holidays abroad are not the decadent luxury some people are making out.

1. Holidays can be cheaper abroad. Renting a cottage or whatever is often more expensive here.
2. Air fares dirt cheap if you choose your location to take adavantege of the cheap fares.
3. It avoids the tv issue. Cottages always have a bloody telly these days. Ok, I could veto it but a holiday isn't the time for unnecessary bad feeling so it is easier if a foreign language. This is not a trivial point, btw.

The saving can be massive, some posters are playing it down. House rental prices can be up to 4 times as expensive in the summer hols as term time (out of season).
The money saved isn't squandered - it will help ds's uni education later. The student loan does not even cover day to day living expenses and you do not want your child to have to work in term time. The degree will suffer and they end up with the same sized debt for a poor degree as a good degree. Not a good idea.

this is why camping is such an excellent family holiday