taking children out of school for holidays is ILLEGAL

[zippitippitoes]

interesting news report here \link{http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2075270,00.html\ High Court Ruling}

so will anybody still be taking those unauthorised breaks and days off?

Will schools get tougher

and does your school say no at the moment?

Excellent question Spidermama! (soz if that sounds too 'teachery'!)
Which then begs the question are employers then doing enough to promote this.
I think we all work far too hard in this country anyway, and not enough provision is given to bringing up a family.
I also worked as a travel agent for a few years, and when the new holidays where released (18 months in advance), the first flights to go were the school holidays. Holiday companies are very cynical. Scottish flights to the Med would rocket in price from the first week in July, and the English departures a few weeks later.

Skimmed over thread.
I tried to book 2 weeks in May but flights were Wednesday to Wednesday.
Also my brother is getting married a Friday in term time. What if the head says I can't take my kids out of school?

fascinating to see who has the protestant work ethic on this thread...

Tigermoth - I would NEVER take a day off sick if not actually sick. In fact rarely take day off sick when actually AM sick (2hrs in 2.5 years at minute). However members of my team do, and boy it makes life difficult at times.

Two questions:

• does anyone REALLY want to go on a package Mark Warner holiday that bad?
• if you take holidays in termtime how do you get enough leave from work to look after your kids during the 13 weeks they are on holiday?

Haven't read the whole thread

But we have booked a weeks holiday in June, haven't checked with the School yet though!!!!

I have 4 yr old twins one with SN, if we were to go in the school holidays, we know the places we go to will have lots of queues, everywhere will be busy

with DD having SN, queues and busy places are not an option

philippat you talk my language!
you should read 'the little book of calvin' by bill duncan!

phillipat, you're right, the protestant work ethic has not quite enslaved me yet.

My job (as many jobs do) involves meeting deadlines and keeping promises. I do put great importance on keeping my word and working to everyone's expectations, but fundamentally I need to feel I can allow myself to step off the treadmill for a short time in certain circumstances. I hold onto that thought and it keeps me sane and lowers my stress levels. I cannot contemplate a future where I would only allow myself to have time off work if I was on my knees with sickness or had a dire emergency. Most years, it usually works out that this is the case, but I like to keep the door open for all possibilities. I would feel dehumanised if not (can't think of a better way of saying it for now).

For this reason - and as it would be hypocritical of me - I would never tell my sons that only sickness or extreme emergencies would prevent me sending them to school. Not that I tell them anything definite, just take any reason for time off as it comes.

Anyway going back to schools - recenly when the school secretary asked me to come in to collect my son because he was sick, I had to sign a sick book. I saw most of the entries over the past few weeks had been from year 7 children - quite a lot of them - 5 or 6 a day out of 200 children. The secretary said this is common. When the 11 year olds start at secondary school, they are much more prone to catching viruses and bugs and just getting more stressed and tired during the school day. So in my sons' year, there must be an awful lot of children who are behind with some of their subjects. not just the children who have taken holidays. I guess at some point, any teacher seeing a there's a group of pupils who are behind will feel it's worthwhile to bring them all up to speed, without discriminating as to who took leave for 'good' reasons and who took leave for 'bad' reasons.

I know this must be a great hassle, but without wanting to dismiss teachers very valid points about using extra time to do one to one teaching, helping groups of pupils catch up is also part of the job, I'd guess?

balls to the Protestant work ethic
because it has created such a great balance between the needs of employers and the family, hasn't it?

er, no it hasn't actually

there is a bit of a drawback in the some kids have lots of time off for illness theory in that surely having holiday doesn't stop you being ill, so many will have time off for both reasons

the whole class won't have missed the same elements of work so the just help them all catch up theory doesnb't work, although the reverse is true if a substantial minority of the group are behind due to missed work then it holds the whole group back.

If the whole family is to holiday together then for the sake of education don't we have to make compromises, like have fewer holidays and battle for fairer systems of holiday allocation in work.

Holidays are always going to be cheaper off peak as these are loss leaders for holiday companies (and people who rent out their own holiday cottages)effectively they have to make money during the peak times when everyone wants to go away or they would stop trading altogether.

lol at protestant work ethic! I don't really have one I must say. But I still don't like the idea of taking holidays in term time (but let me clarify that I mean holidays. If there's a special reason to go someowhere on those dates, like a family wedding, that's different).

I don't like the message it sends kids (as I said a million posts ago), but also in my experience, it can affect social development/ friendships in that the fickler children may have made new friends by the time your kids return to school. I know - this happened to me several times when i was ill at school.

Did anyone see rock school (I think it was called that), where the lad who could actually play was forced by his parents to go to disneyland when they were doing rehearsals (in term time) ? an extreme example, but i really felt for him. dimwit parents.

Tigermoth I think the same thing must happen when kids start reception. DS went to a day nursery from being a baby. From the age of two until he went to school the only time he was off nursery poorly was when he had chicken pox. And although he had a week off then, two days would have been enough to cover him feeling too ill.

Since he has started reception he has had a week off twice, plus other odd days. The first term in particular he was very tired and seemed prone to catching things.

zippitippitoes, I realise that having holidays does not automatically improve anyone's sick record. I realise that with different children missing different lessons, trying to group them together to catch up must be difficult.

It has to be part of an teaching job, I'd imagine, especially when you have children with different abilities in one class.

My year 7 son is in a streamed class for maths (so you'd think the ability level would be more even) but has still attended catch up groups even when he's been there for the original lesson . From what he tells me (can't say it's 100% realiable of course)it's quite common for say 5 or 6 children in a group to have to go over something with the teacher again - some children get a concept the first timne they are taught it, others don't for all sorts of reasons. It's been a long time, but I remember this from my school days, too.

I don't think there's a black and white argument (shades of grey, yes) that if no children took holidays in term time, the whole class would be at the same level.

OK I will shut up now as I am not a teacher!

Just had a holiday from this thread but find I can't keep away. I was surrounded by teachers coming home from work on Friday afternoon. Is it safe to come out now ? (That's a joke btw - I need a teacher to answer my second point)

Just 2 points.

1. Why can't parents afford to pay more for holidays out of term term? Because in many cases they have paupered themselves moving to the catchment area of a good school and the mortgage now eats all the income. And whats more they are possibly in a more modest house. I know this happens. In other words condemning these parents for not caring about education is too simplistic. Their lifestyle has already been affected.

1. If the curriculum is now more demanding than it ever was how come GCSE's are easier than O levels? Is it the extra admin or perhaps spoon feeding and the heavy course work load?

I'm not unfamiliar with lack of cash (haven't been on holiday with my children as a family since 1999 when I split up with exh)

but if a family can afford to go in term time then they could afford to go in holiday time but less often to make up the shortfall, possibly

Well that's true zippi and we have in fact only had holidays every 2 or 3 years though not just for financial reasons. But my kids are now teenagers and I am becoming very aware of how few family holidays we have had. The last real holiday was 4 years ago and it just struck me how unusual it was for us all to be together, relaxed and for an extended period. It was a completely different kettle of fish that you just can't get at home - commitments, activities, the tv and computer etc. all intrude. It was very special and keeps you in touch with your kids. Now they are teenagers I am vaery aware of how important that is, they change and grow away so quickly. That time will never come again and I regret we didn't have more holidays together.
The reasons for the recent lack of holiday were family illness, ds's GCSE's, dh's uni teaching commitments etc. the sort of things that are not really negotiable and you can't take out a loan to fix! But up until gcse and A level years I had no qualms about hols in term time. The work can be caught up and does it actually matter if it isn't at this stage?

Those parents that do work, what DO you do for the summer holidays and what do you do with your children if you have had your family holiday during term time?

Dear Headmaster,

Why is my son's teacher absent from class every year in the week before the school summer holidays?

Yours,
A Parent

Dear A Parent,

Don't you know - the last week of term isn't important, so we told them not to bother coming in.

Yours
Headmaster

Dear Headmaster,

Why can't the school afford enough books for every pupil?

A Parent

Dear A Parent,

We've had to find more money to pay for supply teachers because the teachers keep going on holidays during term-time. They have families too and apparently every child has a right to a foreign holiday.

Yours,
Headmaster

Dear Headmaster,

My daughter doesn't seem to be learning anything new this term. Why is she being held back?

A Parent

Dear A Parent,

The teacher is trying to introduce a new topic but he is waiting until there is more than 80% of the class present so that he doesn't have to repeat the topic 5 more times.

Yours Headmaster

beatie, my aunt works in a school, as does my stepmum- ds is alternated between those two during the school holidays, and dp can get an odd day off here and there.

i have mentioned way down at the beginning of the thread, and on another holiday in term time thread that the nature of my work makes it impossible for me to get school holidays off, therefore our only option this year ( ds is in reception) is to go away during term time.

next term however, i will be going to uni myself and will only be able to have the holidays off when the course says so, fortunatly, most of that will correspond with the school holiday.

tiredemma won't you just be able to take time off from uni in term time?

quanglewangle - I fully appreciate how expensive school holiday holidays are on top of a high mortgage to live in a modest sized home. But a lot of parents who take term time holidays take more than one holiday per year and every year. If the headmaster did not authorise their termtime leave, I'm certain most would be able to fund one school holiday break, if not every year then every other year.

In fact, on Saturday I had to listen to a hairdresser telling her client how she'd been on the Internet looking for a cheap deal. She already had a week away in November and is planning to take her kids out of school again at the end of April. This is a woman who admits to spending £250 on each child for Christmas, whose dh drives a BMW and who lives in a 4 bedroom house, which she's currently spending a few thousand pounds on to re-decorate.

lol Beatie. I'm afraid I take the approach that if you can't afford to take your children on holiday in school holidays, or you can't get leave in the school holidays, you don't go on holiday. Plain and simple as that. That's how I was brought up and that's how my kids will be brought up.

zippi- i get xmas and easter at uni, also the tail end ( think the last three weeks) of the six weeks holidays. my Course stipulates that holidays out of this time are a big no-no.

beatie, please don't think I am arguing for people who abuse the system. What you describe is just plain daft and I certainly wouldn't condone it.

What I am saying is that if circumstances dictate, for whatever reason, a holiday in term time is preferable to no holiday at all. I take it with a clear conscience - educational in its own right, broadens horizons, strengthens (hopefully!!) the family and all the other reasons that have already been aired.

Sure, they will have to catch up and it might be hard work but can be done and is worth it. dh and I both have 2 degees and so can't be accused of not valuing education. But school can't provide everything.

P.S. Wasn't meaning to imply that anyone was actually accusing me of not valuing education. Just didn't want to give the impression that I don't take education seriously. Not getting paranoid or anything ......

if parents want to take their kids on holiday 3 times a year and hold back their childrens edumication then thats their perogative.

there shouldn't be legeslation on it. me thinks some very mportant people have a lot of money invested in major holiday firms.

there will always be the exception to the rule - the woman who takes her kids out two or three times a year.

most people are sensible about it becuase they want their kids to have an education.

i shit you not the amount of times my kids have off school for inset days - these are training days for teachers i assume. why cant they train and get paid more in the fcking holidays?

how much are the inset days costing the economy - i have to take toil or a day off to look after my kids then.

its all tits up

if the govt werwe truly interested in the wellbeing on a whole of our children then it wouldlook at the whole doubling of holiday prices at vacation times thing.

they are not - its a good soundbit appealing to the middle classes who can actually afford to go on holiday in holiday times.

rather than those of us who are lucky to get a holiday at all.

this way my children will not get a vacation at all. and that is becuase the govt are titwanking the people who can afford it as per bleedin usual.

its very easy to get on a moral high horse about the value of education without thinking through why the govt just dont work things differently - why they dont change the term times, or let each LA dictate teh term times so the holiday companies whould have to have a uniform pricing strategy.

why dont teachers take their training days and inset days during the holidays? and get paid for it?

why do my kids get so long off at summer that they forget everything they were taught and the teachers then have to waste a full week assessing where every one is up to.

it stinks its pandering to the cake baking middle classes with accountants for husbands - the 2.5 children "we only eat organic" ( lucky you to be able to afford it and to be able to aford a holiday)

people like me and my dh who cant afford in a month of sundays to pay out for 5 people to go on holiday and pay the suppliments for the non existant person robbing fcking bastard holiday companies who charge you only in even numbers - but you wont fcking legeslate on that will you airy fairy blairy you tosser

so my kids dont get a holiday now - and thats ok is it? the wonderful annual family time where we played and read together, swam together and had a week of pure bliss - one fcking week a year ONE. ONE we worked hard for, saved for and could only afford in term time. ONE. ONE week of interacting greatly with our kids becuase we work all the fcking time to pay everything else all i want to do after tea and fcking homework is collapse on the settee every evening.

weekends consist of catching up on the washing and the decorating and the fixing and the mowing and the shopping - and this isn't a violin moment becuase millions of people are jsut the same. and now cant afford to have the memories that those with money can have on their holidays.

education is important. family is important - as with the new work life balance shit were all getting at work now.

if the govt wanted to really solve the problem REALLY they would do it another way - it would be more difficult and fck the shit out of me - would even mean entering talks with the teaching unions over increased working hours during holiay times - politically sensative?

i think so

i want 5 damn days a year to spend with my family.

its wrong.

i am a good parent, we value our holidays

Bang on Custardo, bang on.