What happened after they scrapped the 11+ in England?

[Rojak]

I live in Northern Ireland where we still have the 11+ transfer tests which the majority of 11 year olds take. Then depending on the grade they obtai, they go on to a grammar school of their choice or a secondary.

However the Government is planning to scrap the 11+ in the next couple of years and I'd just like to find out what happened in England when this took place.

ATM, there's widespread speculation here and some people are looking at buying houses close to the most popular schools which may turn comprehensive, while some grammar schools (including one I attended and had hoped that my kids would attend) are looking at the private route.

Does anyone remember when the English system was reformed and what the result of it is? I'm often confused reading some threads on here which talk about church schools, grammar schools, state schools and then private schools.

Thanks

It wasn't reformed completely, Rojak, which is why there are still selective grammars in some areas.

Church secondaries here are comprehensives (unless they're in a town which has selection I suppose) but tend to have better standards of behaviour and education which makes them more desirable.

How does the selective grammar system work then? Do the schools still get some sort of funding from the government but less than say a school which decided to go down the comprehensive route?

Thanks!

They abolished the 11+ in my area when I was at infant school (early 70’s) then we moved to another area where they still had the 11+, but they abolished it a couple of years after I started the local grammar schools. In both cases the choice was either the Grammar school (where you did ‘O’ and ‘A’ levels) or the local secondary mod where you did CSE’s and left at 16 and the 11+ was compulsory. I don’t think it is quite the same as the remaining grammar schools in England where you now have a choice of a comprehensive.

The same thing happened in both areas – in the first area the old girls grammar school was too small to cope with being a comprehensive. The old secondary mod became a very good comprehensive and is now near the top of the national league tables. In the second area our girls grammar school turned into a mixed comprehensive (for 11-16) and the sixth form (along with all the good teachers) were ciphoned off to the sixth form college. For a while the school really suffered and went right down hill, although it did eventually settle down and became a good comprehensive. The local secondary mod – a much bigger school used to coping with a range of abilities - coped with the change much better and became a good comprehensive without ever struggling to cope with the change. When the change happened over ½ the teachers changed schools.

Might have been different elsewhere – this is just two examples - and maybe they will have learnt to manage the change better by now.

ps - no Grammars here - I wish there were!

Meant to add that the old girls grammar school
quickly closed in the first area

The state grammars are ordinary state schools with (AFAIK) ordinary funding - ours did go Grant Maintained when the Tories were dishing out loads of money, but opted back in when the funds dried up.

Our grammar was excluded from the 3 secondary school choices when my kids were in Y6, so opting for the right school wasn't the lottery it is now. I think it changed for all of them at the last intake - now you have to put the grammar as first choice in order to take the entrance/11+, but if the child isn't selected then he/she won't get into their 2nd/3rd choice either because all the best schools require that you put them first.

This tends to mean round here that unless a child is a shoo-in the parents are more likely to opt for the best available non-selective school. (Also, in 11+ areas I gather there is a sort of double selection; they have to pass the exam but still don't know what school they'll be going to.)

HTH. (Doubt it though!)

It's interesting reading and I can see Silverbirch, some of the things you mention happening here in Northern Ireland, by virtue of schools being in different locations.

I missed all the changes because I left school in 1969, and wasn't really involved again until DD1 started school in 1987.

Rojak, I would hope that the NI education authorities would learn from the English experience (not holding my breath however)

We heard today that DS got into the Grammar school :)

We were lucky though that in putting our extremely good catchment school as second choice we were not penalised as they operate equal preference here.

Oh, good for him (and you) Milliways!

Where we lived the Grammars and Secondary Moderns all turned comprehensive with the 5 different original schools joining forces to make 2 2-campus schools. At the same time they changed the age to move to secondary from 11 to 12 , creating a middle school system. Infants 4-8, middle 8-12, comprehensive 12-16/18. I believe the transfer age has since reverted to 11. I would have been kept at middle school for that transition year and been among the first 12+ intake but my parents decided to put me in the private system at 11+ instead. My db was entering the 6th form as they changed (he'd been at the Grammar previously) and it was a messy year with changes of headship, teachers coming and going and different kids (who hadn't passed at 11+ ) arriving. He left after a year.

When the 11+ was scrapped it changed from being selection by ability to selection by postcode ie parental income. Much more equal.... NOT!

Much of the grammar school-led debate here has centred on how changing the current system will lead to this whole idea of selection by postcode or by ability to pay (if schools turn private).

The Government insists that't not going to be the case and that it will be a case of parental choice but I very much doubt it in cases of more popular schools.

Hearing the stories about changes in teachers, head teachers and the general upheaval sound horrendous and I'm sad that this is what we will have to look forward to.

Yes school has had meeting but very much in the climate of these proposals are going to be pushed through regardless. Whereabouts in NI are you?

Bethron - what's prompted this thread was the article in the Irish News yesterday about Methody looking at options to go private. Did you read it?

The only other one which said it would consider the private option was Campbell but I suspect that for many of the other schools, they would not be able to afford to go private. Fees being quoted were around £7k per annum and I can't see many families being prepared to pay that for something which in the past, they have not had to or may not have planned for.

I was just browsing the Telegraph wensite and came across a letter from the Concerned Parents group! Nice chatting to you though - I'm done for the day

it all went tits up

11+ was scrapped to get rid of grammar/secondary modern divide (obv. selective by dint of the 11+ ). Comprehensives were invented to take their place (except for a very few EA's which stood firm eg. in Kent, who still have a few grammar schools), necessarily becoming schools with much larger rolls.

This was Thatcher's directive when she was Education Minister as far as I remember?

Nowadays parents are fighting tooth and nail over the few grammar school places available which kind of proves that most people want selective schools (especially at secondary level.)

Is NI doing this because its cheaper? Must have always been the reason it was done in England, rather than the one the govt. used, ie the tired and false old excuse that it was fairer for everyone?

Or to put it another way, it all went tits up (thank you Jools)

In our area the local grammar school went into the state system for a couple of years, then turned private. The one in a neighbouring LEA also went private, but then went back into the state system as a Catholic grammar school.

when you say "most people" want selective schools, I would challenge that
most people with access to the media to put their point across are in favour
co-inidentally they generally expect their children to get into grammar schools, through ability or some extra coaching
generally people are speaking in favour of grammar schools rather than secondary modern equivalents.
I am probably generalising, no doubt due to being tired and tetchy, but not too much I don't think.
I went to a comp which had recently changed from a secondary modern. The words "factory fodder" were bandied about with sickening regularity. I wouldn't recommend it.

who used the words 'factory fodder' though, where did it generate from? not from articulate, educated adults surely?

ask a a kid if they feel unwell and they'll probably say 'oooh, yes I do a bit'

if people had the brains to drill into kids that not passing a particular exam did not equal 'failure' they wouldn't have felt failures and they weren't either but if you say it often enough they come to believe it!

Language is a powerful tool if used correctly!