What happened after they scrapped the 11+ in England?

[Rojak]

I live in Northern Ireland where we still have the 11+ transfer tests which the majority of 11 year olds take. Then depending on the grade they obtai, they go on to a grammar school of their choice or a secondary.

However the Government is planning to scrap the 11+ in the next couple of years and I'd just like to find out what happened in England when this took place.

ATM, there's widespread speculation here and some people are looking at buying houses close to the most popular schools which may turn comprehensive, while some grammar schools (including one I attended and had hoped that my kids would attend) are looking at the private route.

Does anyone remember when the English system was reformed and what the result of it is? I'm often confused reading some threads on here which talk about church schools, grammar schools, state schools and then private schools.

Thanks

If there wasn't a "better" school and an exam to "pass" or "fail" most parents would be happy with the comprehensive system, I'd bet.

it was bandied about, freely, by many of the teachers
as in "you are all...."
yes, it was a powerful message
not all the teachers by any means, but quite a number of them seemed to view their job as crowd control

there were some evil bstrds at grammar school in the 60's too if my dh is to be believed (teachers that is, not pupils ). (or students as we call them now - rolls eyes)

oh god I haven't even started on the evil bstrds
there were some who never quite got over the abolition of the cane
some very enthusiastic child beaters in my school

Cam

The background to Northern Ireland is (my version anyway!) that when Martin McGuinness (Sinn Fein) was Education Minister in the devolved NI Govn in 2001 announced that he was scrapping the 11+. The Minister who replaced him when the devolved government fell apart, carried this through and has announced that the last 11+ exams will take place in 2008.

The reason we've been given for scrapping the 11+ is pretty much the same as what was given in England - that selecting children at 11 is unfair and puts undue pressure on them.

I suspect that McGuinness, being part of Sinn Fein which gets the majority of its support from very working class and deprived areas of NI, is from the school of thought that levelling the education playing field by turning all schools comprehensive and no selection would means kids from those neighbourhoods would get a better chance at education.

What I see as flawed in this argument is that the current grammar schools, only select on ability hence you may get kids from more deprived backgrounds admitted by virtue of the fact they had the grades too. Admittedly, you've also got a large middle class admission because of some of thereasons posted on the Middle Class schools thread.

One of the principals of a local grammar school made what I thought was a very good point that to some people the thought of selection based on education achievement seemed to be anathema but selection based on your postcode or ability to pay seemed more acceptable.

Bethron

If you're online today, I received an email with the following link on it - it's to the Concerned Parents website and you can click through to send an email to support their fight against the Government (and forward it to as many people as you can think of who might be interested). Thanks!

\link{
www.concernedparentsforeducation.org/support.asp\Concerned Parents for Education}

There is still 11+ here and it is used for the grammar AND the comprehensive

yes I know that sounds wrong but there you go

That is what happens here

The same exams {maths and verbal reasoning} and also musical apptitude are used for all the schools

So it is not really fair if your child is not very bright

Luckily DS has got a place at our 1st choice but loads won't have done

"So it is not really fair if your child is not very bright" probably sums up what is wrong with the whole argument. Who says that the secondary moderns/high schools have to be a second-class option? Just one of my four children didn't go to grammar school. He went to the local high school. It was the right school for him and he thrived there. He did really well and came out with As and Bs at GCSE, and he was very happy there. That is surely the point- that you get the right school for each child.

In my area they changed the schools in 1975 and adopted the system LIZS describes, with middle school until 12. It was a total disaster and those of us caught in the crossfire did not achieve our potential. It didn't help that they merged the boys grammar, girls grammar and three secondary moderns into one school.

As a grammar, my school was the very best in the city in the 60s and early 70s. As a comprehensive (ie wide ability), their latest results are just 23% GCSE and 918.1 Value added. Compare that to my son's school which is effectively a secondary modern with the brightest pupils creamed off to grammar school, which got 50% GCSEs and a value added of 996.2. That really sums up why I don't believe in comprehensives.

We also live in an 11+ area with a boys and a girls grammar
By default or not, the local co ed high school is extremely good as well, so assuming you do your selections properly here then you'll be ok, plenty of kids who pass the 11+ here choose the high school too.
I'm curious as to how much the education system has improved since the scrapping of the 11+ in the majority of areas
Also what criteria was it that kept some areas grammar areas?
I'm happy as ds was definitely a grammar school boy.
I think Martin McGuiness failed the 11+ didn't he (as did my mother - eng lit degree)
Is there evidence that selection by 11+ causes more disadvantage than post code selection?

Piffle - well, social mobility has declined....

Piffle - yes I believe Martin McGuinness failed his 11+ - but he's managed to re-invent himself (whether you agree with his politics or not).

I too would be interested to know how much the education system has improved in England since the 11+ was scrapped.

In NI, some people believe that our education system is better and produces better results because we have maintained the 11+. However there seems to have been no qualitative research done to support this argument or the argument that the 11+ is not good for kids.

I think part of the problem was that in the old days the majority of secondary moderns were underfunded compared with grammar schools (think I heard this on the 'That'll teach 'em' secondary modern series) so even if there was research looking at what actually happened when they were abolished, that wouldn't necessarily have relevance for what will happen in NI.
Agree very much with Tallulah - the argument has been framed in terms of the unfairnes of a good education for some and a bad education for others, rather than in terms of an appropriate education for all and academic ability as a key element in deciding what's appropriate. This current idea that it is ok to select for 'aptitude' at 11 but not 'intelligence' is loony IMO, but I assume it results from a general discomfort with the baggage of superiority/inferiority that goes with the idea that there is a single characteristic called intelligence. Multiple intelligences as a theory is a lovely way of avoiding this but it misses the point that actually, all-round academic intelligence is probably the most effective way to divide children in order to give them the education they need.

The 11+ was scrapped 2 years before i started senior school- I ended up at the local rough Comprehensive and very very unhappy.
It seemed so unfair when my older brothers and sisters were at fantastic schools.

So now i am on a mission to ensure dd and ds do not have unhappy schooling.

I feel bitter about the whole thing

I am amazed (and so pleased) to see how many people on mumsnet are not anti-grammar - I am passionately pro-grammar (feel far more strongly abt this than I do abt epidurals, Gina Ford, weaning spoons etc) but hardly ever meet anyone in RL who agrees. Do others find this too?

All the messages I am reading hre from those of you who have been through the English system pre or post the scrapping of the 11+ seems to be that the system of selection was overall more positive than it was negative.

I too am sad that my kids may not have the same access to education that I had.