"the more middle class the school, the better it does"

[puddle]

A study, reported in the Guardian today has found that regardless of background, children do better the more "middle-class" the school they attend. 50% of a school's performance is accounted for by the social make-up of its pupils.

Here's a quote from the article:

"In affluent areas, such as Dukes Avenue, Muswell Hill, in north London, and Lammas Park Road, Ealing, west London, the study would expect 67% of 11-year-olds to achieve level 5 in the national English tests and 94% of 15-yearolds to get five or more passes at GCSE at grade C and above.

Meanwhile, of the children growing up in more deprived areas, such as Hillside Road, Dudley, or Laurel Road, Tipton (both in the West Midlands), just 13% are likely to get the top level 5 in the national English tests for 11-year-olds, while only 24% of 15-year-olds will be reckoned to achieve the benchmark five-plus GCSEs at grade C and above.

Put simply, the more middle-class the pupils, the better they do. The more middle-class children there are at the school, the better it does. It is proof that class still rules the classroom."

This seems to me to be proof that middle class parents damage all children by taking their kids out of state education and into private schools and gives credence to the arguement that middle class parents should stick with the state sector to improve education for everyone.

Views? I know it's a total parp subject for many.....

That would be one of my main worries about private school too drosophila. I have seen so many people become redundant (especially in mine and DH's professions). I do understand why some people choose private school for their children. I used to live in the same area as Marina and know the school she sends her son too and I would probably have done the same did I still live there. However, if you live in an area where the schools are decent, I wonder how much return you get on the money you invest in private school.

Depemds what you mean by return I guess.

I am sending, hopefully, my child to an environment that I think bests suits her and her situation, as well as mine and DH's current situation. I m not looking for outstanding academic achievements as a result of my "investment". I am looking to have a happy little girl, who will develop and grow in the caring, nauturing environment I have chosen for her. All I ask of her is that she always tries her best.

Agree, Hula, I don't see private education as an 'investment' at all. How horrible. My reason for choosing private education is because I know my dds will be happy in the particular school I have chosen and I know that they would not be at my local school. We don't have a faith and I don't want to increase my mortgage and go back to work full-time in order to move to a nicer catchment area. If there is anyone on this thread who has chosen private school for their kids for a reason other than happiness and the support, facilities and expertise it can offer I would be extremely surprised.

It's nice that you and Fairymum are so concerned about our finances Dros and I'm sorry you know a family who experienced a financial crisis which jeopardised their children's place at private school. But as I've said private school will make less of an impact on our finances than will nursery fees which we have coped with for four years as have thousands and thousands of others. Again, if there is anyone on this thread who has not weighed up the financial consequences of private school and the impact this will have on their lives I would be extremely surprised.

It's a bit sad that people come up with examples of people who choose private school for the wrong reason or experience a financial crisis etc when these are so clearly a minority and when it is so blindingly obvious that all the MNetters who have chosen private school are motivated only by their kids' happiness and have so obviously researched all their education options (read OFSTED reports, researched catchment areas, balanced budgets, visited schools etc).

surely the title of this thread is a statement from the ministry of the bleeding obvious

Why is it horrible to see private school as an investment? Surely it is or can be an investment in your child's future. I don't mean just monetary. My point is that in many areas there really isn't much difference between a good state school and a private school. In my area, for example, the state schools are very good, so paying for a private school really isn't worth the money.
I am not concerned about your personal finances springintheair. I think both me and drosophila were making a general point and I was saying that I personally would worry about getting into a difficult finicial situation which would mean my children would have to change schools. I personally know people who have re-mortgaged their houses and are in debt up to their ears to pay for private schools in areas where state is perfectly good and I think that's a shame (although obviously none of my business).

Wasn't the original point about how all children do better in middle-class schools and thus about the detrimental effects of 'middle-class drain' on state schools?

I'm certainly not holier-than-thou (or any of thee) about education and am very likely to send my DSs' to private secondary school, because of what I perceive as its (relatively marginal) benefits for them. This is a source of huge marital tension as DH disagrees fundamentally.

Of course most people who send their children to private schools do so for the best of all possible reasons. That doesn't mean that our current split school system is a system that creates the best opportunities for all children.

absolutely singersgirl, that's the point
everyone's individual choices are their business
but they do have an impact

It's a fair point about running out of cash... I once worked for a boss who got sacked after stealing cash when he and wife couldn't afford the school fees (£12k each per annum) any more. I was one of the ones he stole from so will always remember this. I will always also remember the look on his fce of horror as he realised he would have to take the kdis from their beloved school- that broke my heart .

We have a very good school here indeed, as good as any private school I have come across. I would, however, if cash was available send the boys private if I could find one that matched our slightly dippy hippy ethos and where DS1 could get more support with his sn.

My Sister will send her only child private: it's a family tradition in her dh's family and the schools where they are really are pitiful. DS1 went to one of those for a year, I was prepared to do what i could to raise standards but the majority of parents there don't value education and one amongst many = not a lot frankly.

I do empathise with the idea of a skills drain on schools, where all the families who can remove their kids and go elsewhere and I can't really justify private education in my heart. However, moral creature though I am, my kids welfare comes first and I wouldn't send them to a sink school inorder to make a political point. I can make the point over the next 50 years all i want, but I have to do best by mine.

Fairy, parents with kids at private school worried about financial crises could always take out insurance. This is actually recommended by the schools. And I totally agree with you it would be ridiculous to send your kids to private school if your local state schools were as good. And I totally agree that you would be mad to make yourself homeless or whatever for the sake of private school fees. You obviously know some rather sad or misguided people. This type of person doesn't appear to post on this site and is obviously exceptional so shouldn't be used as a reason to criticise a) the private school system or b) the parents who choose it.

I wouldn't dream of using cheap stereotypes or exceptional examples to criticise the state system or point out the disadvantages of sending your kids to a state school so why is this acceptable the other way around? E.g. just because the head of a local state school stole money from the school doesn't mean the whole system is corrupt, just because one of my ex-colleagues used to fall asleep while his students copied out stuff from text books (really!) doesn't mean all state teachers lack commitment to their jobs and just because a student at my dp's state school spat at him today (really!) doesn't mean all kids who go to state schools are unwilling to learn.

I respect the state system and I work in it. I wish it were better and I feel terribly betrayed by the Labour govt which seems to be dismantling many of the wonderful principles behind it. The vast majority of teachers do a brilliant job often with inadequate resources and always with inadequate government support. If you choose to send your kids to a state school then that's great. If it just so happens that your local school is really good and you live in a nice middle class area then lucky you. I don't. My local school is not good and my dds would suffer there so I'm opting for private school. At the private school my kids will attend the majority of parents are in my sort of position. They are not privilieged and they are not loaded and I know this because the inspection report says so not because I know one or two of them! I would be extremely surprised if they have chosen the school for any other reason than they want their kids to be happy, supported and challenged and they know the school can help to do this.

This mum who wants her dd to go to private school so she can make connections and get a posh accent but can't really afford it. Not called Sally Webster by any chance is she?

Sally Webster is almost a carbon copy of the woman in the couple I know. Funny thing is she herself laughs heartily at Sally. The irony.

The reason I always raise the issue of finance is cos I am truly shocked at how little perspective the people I know have. They would do anything rather than take their child out of school. I read an article in a mag a while back about a woman who got into financial difficulties and turned to prostitution so that she could keep the kids in private school.

Insurance won't always help as they don’t cover every eventuality e.g. the lady in the mag article got into trouble after her low rate mortgage returned to normal standard rate. The debts just spiralled ut of control. The couple I know have remortgaged their house and are left with very little equity. There were a couple of examples by other posters of the lengths that people are willing to go to. To me this illustrates that some people value private schooling so much the lose perspective and I truely don't understand it.

harpsichord - 'I am not having a go at you bloss, or anyone in particular. I am - in fact - juts responding to the orginal post (remember that?) schools need parental and community support and if the middle classes abandon them (or a critical mass of them do) then this will become a self fulfilling prophect.
it has consequences, is all I am saying'

I think your point is undeniable. But interestingly, it's not really relevant to my local school. It is one of the most solidly middle-class areas in the country, and the vast majority of mothers in particular work at best part-time. The whole school community is incredibly support and active - we have reading groups every day staffed by 3-4 mothers each day; we have a fathers' club; we have a canteen serving very healthy foods which is largely staffed by volunteer mothers; we have a fantastic P&C which does really good fundraising; it's the kind of place where you know virtually every child is getting the support at home they need with homework, daily reading practice etc; the after-school care is fantastic - extremely high quality and yet only needed by a fairly small proportion of families in the school (they always seem to have 1-2 vacancies if necessary)... I don't think you could get a school much better supported by its parents and community than this one. And YET... it is still not adequately funded for the kinds of things I'm after. AND, regardless of funding issues, there are aspects of the school culture (the manners and self-discipline thing) that I really object to. They are not questions of funding or fundraising - they are just different values that I don't like and are important to me.

Despite what Enid would like to think, there's more to this private school thing than people think. For instance, she says:
'I..am entitled to slag off the parents (most of whom I know personally) who have a perfectly good (more than good) village school at their disposal and yet choose to move their kids to the (very expensive) private schools in our area.'

But all the way through she has completely refused to accept that some people might have objections to the local school that she doesn't share. Most of the parents of children in my ds's class would take the same view of this particular school: it's 'perfectly good'. My view is different. But Enid insists that HER view is the only correct one - and thus it inevitably follows that anyone who wants something different cannot be genuine and must have sinister, materialistic, snobbish motives for choosing something different.

bloss thanks for repeating all my spelling mistakes there

As for the money issue...

I would rather not have to go private at all. For a while there, I was optimistic that I wouldn't have to. I'm now convinced that this is not going to be satisfactory and we will at some stage go private for both of them.

I would not lie, cheat, steal or go into prostitution for it. If necessary, I would sell our house and rent, ie sacrifice the equity we have. I just feel that it's that important. I know some people think it would be mad to do this, but I think it shows how important I think a good school can be to a child's happiness. Enid will no doubt go into a swearing fit when she sees this! :)

hee hee! :)

Dros said : "How many people send their childen to private school for the connections they make"

..but of course, to coin a well used cliche it's not what you know but who you know. Work the system I say!

of course, I could just be drunk (again) and look for a ruck

It's all doom and gloom then Dros. I'd better brace myself for a life walking the streets and living in a cardboard box which the other parents who send their kids to private school are obviously all doing too (which rather undermines the snob and connections argument doesn't it by the way?). Can't you see that the woman who turned to prostitution is an exception. That's why she made the news!

And therefore you can't use this as an argument against choosing private schools any more than I can say that the fact that x student was bullied to the point of suicide at x state school or whatever (see my examples below) is an argument against choosing any state school for any child.

Back to the OT, I also notice that nobody has responded to my point that 'in middle-class areas with good state schools the middle-class parents are already sending their kids to these schools hence the reason why they're middle class!' If you really think that if the 12% of children who currently go to private school would all go to a deprived, currently not middle-class school and change the face of British education if private schools were abolished tomorrow than bless your naive little heads. Of course, the vast majority would go to whatever school is top of the league tables even if that meant their parents having to move half way across the country or adopting a faith they don't really believe in. Which would achieve what exactly? Oh yes, the best schools (most of which have mostly middle-class kids in mostly middle-class areas with cathcments where house prices are beyond the reach of most people or are faith schools) may get even better and the worst schools would stay exactly the same. Fantastic.

Also, I like to think that I do have quite a strong sense of social responsibility like many other MNetters who send their kids to private school. Hence the reason I and my dp work in the state system as do many othe MNEtters many of whom also do a lot of voluntary work in their schools and communities. But the idea of sending my middle-class kids into the local school so they can somehow raise the aspirations and achievements of the kids currently there is also completely naive. The reality is that my kids would be treated as aliens, bullied, feel out of place and probably have their own aspirations and achievements undermined which is exactly what happened to me when my lefty, socially responsible parents sent me to my local comp. There was barely a day that went by when I wasn't called 'posh' or a 'snob' or 'weird' (these are the polite terms) because I wanted to learn and I didn't seem like most of the other kids there. As I've mentioned before other kids on the school bus used to think it was great fun to spit on me when I got off the bus because I was different. This is not what I want for my kids when my local MP's kids are going to private school.

Weeeeeelll...Like you, I'm not prepared to sacrifice my children to principle. The difference between DH and me is that he doesn't believe our local state school would be sacrificing them, whereas I fear it might be.

So, Springfever, do you think if (implausibly) private schools were abolished housing would polarise even more? What would happen in areas like mine, where owner-occupied housing is very expensive, but is cheek by jowl with large council estates? Would house prices in Richmond-upon-Thames suddenly drop as everyone moved to somewhere more homogenous?

Where I live, primary schools are very good, largely because the middle class parents send their children there - it is a self-perpetuating truth.

Secondary schools aren't particularly good, which is another self-perpetuating cycle. Many middle class parents get twitchy and anxious, and opt for the private sector (between 30% and 50% of leavers at my DSs' local state school leave for private schools or neighbouring Kingston grammar schools at the end of Y6).

There is no demographic reason that secondary schools in Richmond-upon-Thames should not be amongst the best in the country, but unfortunately the most affluent, motivated and highly educated parents desert the state system by then.

Oops, I meant Springisintheair (I wish it was today!), not Springfever. Apologies!

Doh! Springintheair.....

My friend's grandfather was the headmaster of a very rough school in Lanarkshire. His theory was thus: take a bucketful of strawberries and a bucket full of sht. Mix them together - and the sht doesn't come out tasting of strawberries

I absolutely believe that everyone has a right to a fantastic education, and I'd love to see much more emphasis given over to education, but I'm realistic.

It isn't 'sinister' to be snobbish bloss

lots of people are.

Singersgirl, you're right. Schooling in London is very tricky. I suppose lots of people move out to the suburbs once they have children. You get left with many people who are either very rich (who may well choose private schooling) or very poor (who probably have very limited choice) and, unlike many other areas of the country, as you say, often they live close together. I used to live and teach in East London and in the year after my dd1 was born I moved up. There's no way I could have afforded private school fees in London. And I think this story is typical of middle-class mums, if you can't afford or don't agree with private schools, and your local school isn't good, you move.