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Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Do any teachers on here support Michael Gove's education policies?

325 replies

SummerExhibition · 13/06/2012 21:28

Just wondering. Everything related to curriculum changes, academies, free schools etc gets a bashing on here and just wondering if there's another side to the argument really.

OP posts:
Ormiriathomimus · 18/06/2012 17:01

He is the only person I have ever heard DH use 'c*nt' about.

Ormiriathomimus · 18/06/2012 17:06

Yes to MN chat with the Gove. Would love to hear him defend himself against a battalion of pissed-off articulate teachers.

Are standards falling? I don't know but if they are the last thing you want to do is alienate the very people you need on side to make the required changes. And he has done a fantastic job of alienating almost every teacher I know. And everyone else involved in education. Good job MrG!

Aliceinthelookingglass · 18/06/2012 17:26

What I'd like to see is a reasoned, objective discussion here about the good and bad points in the educational system today.

From what I have read on this thread, there is not one post which objectively looks at what is being proposed, AND takes into account the views of the CBI and universities with regard to the standards of people leaving school.

What I do see here are comments from people ,perhaps much younger than I am, who have no knowledge of how things have changed over several decades.

BigTilly I cannot possibly comment on your GCSEs- which year did you sit them?- and your DDs- and your view is purely subjective. How do you know her English is way better than yours? What do you mean by that comment? How can you prove it?

One fact is that when I started teaching, pupils studied whole texts for English lit- now they study a few chapters of a novel, because a whole text is deemed too hard. GCSE exams used to be marked on spelling, punctuation and grammar- quite rigorously- half a mark taken off for every mistake. i know- I marked them! Now there is a 5% allowance either way for these.

Texts are taken into the exam- so pupils can refer to them- and up until this year, annotated texts were allowed.

Course work modules can be re-taken often time after time until the "right" grade is acheived.

In MFL some pupils are allowed to take dictionaries into the exams.

At the lower end, 20 -25% of children leave school functionally illiterate.

More pupils leave school with fewer than 5 GCSEs grades A-C ( inc maths and English) than those who gain these. And this is in the face of exams being made easier.

I don't have the tables to hand, but educational achievement in some areas of the NC is the same as underdeveloped countries, and the Chinese and East are outstripping us.

So those of you who think Gove is not doing the right things- what are your proposals?

breadandbutterfly · 18/06/2012 17:36

Is all that really true, Alice?

The bit about removing half a mark per spelling, punctuation and grammar error is silly - I mark English exams at higher levels, and whilst those areas are important, it could mean a candidate who is dyslexic but brilliantly creative or with a huge sensitivity to the language or to literature could get zero. So i think it's right that marks for those areas are capped. I don't see any advantage of the old standards here.

But the bit about being able to take the books in, even annotated copies? A few chapters only? Agree - does sound way too easy.

Aliceinthelookingglass · 18/06/2012 17:44

Of course it is true!

This is why I become rather heated because unless you have been around in education for a long time, then it's not easy to know how things have changed.

The way it used to work was yes, half a mark for an error- but not the same error 10 times. so if you can't spell necessary you would only be marked down once for that.

I despair at teachers who react to reforms from a standpoint of more change= more work for them- without really thinking about the bigger picture.

Re. your comment on dyslexics- if a candidate is dyslexic they are allowed extra time or other concessions depending on their assessment by an ed psych.

This has always been the case, although sadly many dyslexics were not diagnosed years ago.

Aliceinthelookingglass · 18/06/2012 17:46

sorry bread but are you talking about marking GCSE and A levels? if so, surely you know what candidates are allowed to do? You must know the syllabus?

EBDTeacher · 18/06/2012 18:12

I can't comment on Secondary but if I was Secretary for Education my core policy would be to reduce Primary class sizes. Preferably by half.

Tosh to the sepia image of 50 children sat in silent rows practising their handwriting.

20 kids, 1 teacher and at least a part time TA. That would mean a lot less kids slipped through the net and address teacher workload in one fell swoop. Subsequent to that, sensible, well researched curriculum reforms could actually be effectively inplemented. Of course there will never be the £££ to fund it. That doesn't stop Gove peddling his ideas though. gets soapbox

bigTillyMint · 18/06/2012 18:28

Alice yes, it is purely subjective, but when I compare the essays that she writes with my old O'level booksBlush

Aliceinthelookingglass · 18/06/2012 18:55

But Tilly- it's a bit like saying "I know a man who smoked 100 fags a day and lived to 102, and never got cancer."

1 example doesn't mean anything much.

I look at GCSE essays now and compare them with what i read 30 years back and they are not as good- not the pupils' fault- mainly to do with the syllabus and teaching.

And going back to primary age- the Rose report made recommendations ages back,on teaching literacy, as did Ruth Miskin who helped advise on synthetic phonics, yet this is not mandatory in schools. Thanks Labour govt.

bigTillyMint · 18/06/2012 19:06

I know. Her history/geography essays are really good too - she's probably just cleverer than me (even though I got A's for all of them at O'level!)Grin

Feenie · 18/06/2012 19:22

don't have the tables to hand, but educational achievement in some areas of the NC is the same as underdeveloped countries, and the Chinese and East are outstripping us

I have pinched pointythings's post from another thread today - it sheds some interesting light on international comparison tables.

In fact the figures are entirely incorrect, and have their roots in a deliberately misleading DfE press release. A proper review of the OECD Programme of International Student Assessment (as conducted by the National Foundation for Education Research) shows that standards in reading, maths and science are holding up well; you can only 'create' the 7th-to-25th position trend in the tables for reading if you a) ignore the fact that 12 of the 25 countries are not different by a statistically significant margin; b) that two countries are new to the table; c) two of the countries higher than the UK have the same score but are higher because they start with an earlier letter of the alphabet; d) that the OECD report gives an explicit warning that the tables should not be used for trend assessment, because earlier studies had sample sizes which make this invalid

pointythings · 18/06/2012 20:07

Alice I think the problem with GCSEs now is as you say not the pupils' fault. I would be willing to bet that there are hordes of very bright GCSE pupils out there who would be able to write essays of a very high standard indeed.
However, because of decades of successive governments messing with the curriculum and politicising it, idealising the past, obsessing with unreliable international league tables, we are now in a situation where it is possible to write a great, innovative, well-argued essay - and get a poor grade because it does not tick the boxes.

I do not see the present secretary of state's innovation changing or improving this at all, in fact I only see him narrowing things even further.

Aliceinthelookingglass · 18/06/2012 21:58

I think what needs to be considered re. levels is that many independent school now use the IB not GCSEs because they feel GCSEs are not demanding enough of more able pupils, and have become quite worthless.

Other Gove ideas such as learning poetry by heart is a good idea for many reasons, and so is learning times tables up to 12 x, not just 10.
The other changes he is proposing that I know of are foreign languages being mandatory- good- and same for synthetic phonics- good again.

I am sure that there are some ideas that are not all that great, but these ones are IMO.

Aliceinthelookingglass · 18/06/2012 22:01

Pointy but I thought one of the changes he- or someone in his team!- talked about was the reintroducation of more demadning essays as part of A level exams- and moving away from the tick boxes/jumping through hoops type of answer? certainly, one thing that one of my children said about their own education was that it didn't " teach them to think"- and I have heard many educationalists level this criticism at the current system of exams.

Feenie · 18/06/2012 22:13

What makes you think most primary children don't learn poetry? And why do you think learning times tables up to 12 is a good idea?

Phonics I will give him. But that's coming mainly from Nick Gibb, not Gove. But yes, brilliant.

pointythings · 18/06/2012 22:17

Alice the problem I have with the new primary curriculum is not so much the content as the way in which there is no flexibility in which child learns what, and when, and how.

There is no allowance made for children developing at different rates. That is stupid, because children are not identical. Some will 'get' reading much earlier than others. Some will be mature enough for formal learning in Yr1, others will not. The timings of this curriculum will set some children up to fail from a very, very young age. This is a terrible shame because the majority of them will catch up in a great leap at some point. Learning just isn't a predictable linear thing, however much Gove might want it to be.

I also have nothing against learning poetry off by heart as an aid to training memory. Memory training is essential. However, in the current curriculum poetry seems to be the only acceptable way to do this. This is stupid. What's wrong with other ways of training memory which will appeal to different types of children? What's wrong with, say, learning the names of all the land dinosaurs from the Jurassic period? The Kings and Queens of England? The capital cities /rivers/deserts of the world? Memory training can be done in so many ways, ways which will engage *all children, not just those for whom reading and language come naturally. Once again, it's so narrow it's practically a corset.

As for times tables - if you understand numbers and the way they work then you don't need more than the 10 times table as everything else can be derived from it - though of course the mathematical patterns of higher number tables can be interesting to those children who have natural 'maths' brains. Once again, it's about flexibility.

As for GCSEs - what we've had so far is about the primary curriculum, not the secondary curriculum. I agree that teaching pupils how to structure an essay, build their argument and be creative in their thinking are all key. However, a fundamental shift in the way exams are assessed is going to be needed if this is going to come to pass. The current system where competing exam boards are allowed to exist (hey, free market economy!) undermines this. It allows schools to 'shop around' for the board that will give the best pass rates and schools do this because they are constantly micro-managed, league tabled and badgered by the government.

I come from the Dutch system - one exam board, no choice, run by the state, no money or profit involved. Everyone sits the same exams. Oh, and schools don't get the choice as to whether or not they enter a pupil for an exam. If the pupil is in an exam year and has chosen to do the subject, he/she sits the exam. That's how you get meaningful data. Essays are marked by the pupil's own teacher, and are then sent away to be marked again by another teacher who does not know the pupil. The mark is averaged. If the disparity is enormous, there are procedures for addressing this - but because every teacher knows this, it rarely happens.

I really don't trust Gove to introduce that kind of rigour, because it means the state taking responsibility for exams and there is no money to be made from that.

pointythings · 18/06/2012 22:18

And Feenie both my DDs already learn poetry off by heart. The brilliant Spike Mililgan, for a start. Somehow I don't think this is what the idiot Gove has in mind, though Sad.

Feenie · 18/06/2012 22:19

So do my Y5s - and any age group I've taught at primary level.

pointythings · 18/06/2012 22:24

Exactly, Feenie - so much of what Gove is saying is already happening but he presents it as if 1) he invented it and 2) the evil leftie sock-and-sandal-wearing teachers are fighting it tooth and nail.

He's only interested in bashing teachers.

Feenie · 18/06/2012 22:25

This I have noticed.

And don't get me started on the Bible.......

pointythings · 18/06/2012 22:29
Feenie · 18/06/2012 22:32

Oh, maybe just the one then. Wink

noblegiraffe · 18/06/2012 22:34

Alice Just look at this thread on the TES forum of maths teachers (some in a very good position to know what is going on up high) trying to figure out what on earth is going on in maths teaching over the next couple of years based on Gove's headlines and subsequent lack of information. It's an utter shambles. Teachers need this information in order to be able to plan and prepare students properly for the exams they will face yet I'm sure that Gove would see a dreadful pass rate as a success for 'rigor' rather than piss-poor organisation.

Look, for example, at Gove's announcement that maths exams should be harder from Nov 2012 and then consider that these exams have already been written and printed. So what does making them harder mean? An arbitrary alteration of grade boundaries simply to ensure that more students fail? How is that a good thing?

What maths GCSE seems to be headed towards is a double award, one demonstrating ability in basic maths that employers want, and one in mathsy maths. This would probably be a good thing. However, if they are introduced soon (2014 is the suggested date from the curriculum review for major changes) then students from this date will have different qualifications - which is fine and can be easily recognised, students to date will have 'grade inflated' easy maths GCSE, and students in the grey area in the middle will have poorer grades in a mishmash of progressively more difficult maths GCSEs (current syllabus that is being sat now is already more difficult, linear starts in September which will be more challenging with the removal of resits, Gove promises harder maths GCSE exams as well as that for next year). It's not fair at all on these kids.

noblegiraffe · 18/06/2012 22:43

By the way, I agree that the current maths GCSE is bollocks, especially where the most and least able students are concerned - removal of the three tier system has a lot to answer for. But tinkering with maths GCSE year on year is not the way to fix this.

I've been teaching maths GCSE for only 7 years. In that time I've taught linear with coursework, linear without coursework, three tier, two tier, modular with multiple choice questions, modular without multiple choice questions. I taught a pilot free-standing functional maths qualification which was supposed to be compulsory then scrapped at the last minute and I'm now teaching GCSE maths with incorporated functional skills. It's ridiculous, none of these changes ever have a chance to bed down. Schemes of work are constantly being re-written and schools spend a bloody fortune on textbooks every time there's a change. Gove doesn't seem to be taking pause and saying 'let's do this properly and let's do this carefully and consider what we actually want out of this qualification then make a wholesale change', he's just shooting his mouth off left right and centre and leaving everyone else to pick up the pieces.

GoodPhariseeofDerby · 18/06/2012 23:39

Don't we already have a Double Maths qualification - Maths and Further Maths? Dividing maths again seems to be over complicating things when we could just adjust what is in each curriculum.