Do any teachers on here support Michael Gove's education policies?

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Just wondering. Everything related to curriculum changes, academies, free schools etc gets a bashing on here and just wondering if there's another side to the argument really.

The French system is one to avoid too, then it seems.

It suffers from being a huge, centralised bureaucracy with massive legacy issues.

On reflection I think that it would be best to keep the one, with different levels, but put a much harder level at the top to really stretch the able. You could at least move up or down a level if necessary.

Really? I hate the idea of school as some sort of factory where you move on and off production lines. I think pupils learn most when they are part of a community of reasonably like-minded DCs.

Ideally, it shouldn't just be the academically weak who choose vocational subjects. In a school I know, madly only those who have no chance of getting any GCSEs are allowed to do motor mechanics and they race the cars they build at some Formula something or other competitions (get me with the tech lingo) But if they're in danger of passing a few GCSES they aren't allowed to do motor mechanics, even if car design or engineering is their future career choice. I know plenty of bright students who'd relish the chance of combining 3 separate sciences with STEM vocational qualifications, which is what industry say they are crying out for.

I can't believe this thread is still talking about the 'academically weak' as though its some sort of de facto category of children.

thick, then?

Is that supposed to be funny?

I am weak academically in some subjects, I am weak vocationally in others. I am piss poor at the piano.

You can term it what you will, the point I was making was that vocational training should not be purely for those who are deemed unable to do traditional academic subjects at GCSE. It devalues both the training and the people taking it. We need those who are good at science to combine the theory with the practical. We need to value and reward those who have skills. Being able to converse in Norse about Snorri Sturluson's prose eddas does not for riches make.

Funny no, exasperated yes.

The issue is which children are "deemed unable" and who decides this, surely?

The thing that continues to strike me is how unnecessary it is. Maybe there does need to be more stretching of the able at GCSE. I wouldn't argue with that. But why are we not debating how to go about that instead of scrapping the system entirely. There are lots of other options. Possibly an extension paper for A*-A or 3 tiers like they have or had in maths - higher, intermediate and foundation. Having exams which are called different things and placed in a hierarchy and which alter children's life chances depending on which side of the divide they are placed in is a regressive step.

Maybe also we need to look at the provision of vocational subjects. Already there are a number but maybe we need more and better to work in tandem with GCSEs. These are all debates that could be had WITH teachers, employers and universities. But at the moment it's imposiiotn and not debate and it's based purely on nostalgia.

Indeed. Gove didn't think to mention his plans to either Cameron or the LibDems (who are the reason that the Tories are even in office), so I can't imagine that he had the humility to ask actual teachers what their experiences and views are.

Gove's absolute lack of engagement with the teaching profession demonstrates so clearly that his reforms are nothing to do with education - he has no educational arguments, only ideology.

.....and friends in the media.

The O level story apparently didn't hit his LibDem cabinet colleagues, but it hit the Daily Mail and has elicited 1121 comments, most of them positive. Canny.

Gove is a devious politician with friends in the media. An odious combination and not to be trusted.

The DM have practically crowned him next Tory leader.

Wonder if it's his reward for his Leveson performance.

There would be no point in my DD taking a humanity at GCSE. She would fail to achieve a mark. Far better that she takes two technology GCSE's as that is where her skills are. What good is a History GCSE in a restaurant kitchen?

And not all DC's will pass a maths GCSE with a 'C' grade or above. With the best will in the world, and the best SEN dept I have ever seen in a MS Secondary, DD will now hopefully achieve an 'E/F' grade at GCSE in Maths. She has dyscalculia, and when she left primary school was still working towards NC Lvl 1 (i.e. still on P-scaled) in Maths.

Forcing her to do a subject she hates, until 18yo, at a college geared up for Adult Education, is not going to help her improve her maths as she will not have access to the excellent support provided by her SEN Dept at school. She will be the first cohort that HAS to stay on until 18yo.

None of the local schools are 11-18, they are all 11-16, with no space to expand to take 16-18yo's.

IMO, the issues with Literacy and Numeracy need tackling long before Secondary school age. If the Primary schools had enough funding to have a FT SenCo and early intervention was standard rather than something that has to be fought for by the parents, more DC would start Secondary at a functional level.

Gove is a slimy-faced twat. And I'm a parent, not a teacher, so if I think that, God knows what most teachers think of him!

(I did snort my drink over my phone at the poster who said she gets an urge to headbutt her computer screen every time she sees a picture if him, so thanks for the laugh)

So my DD, who is currently in Y9, will be sitting linear Maths rather than Modular?! Well, bang goes her 'E/F' Grade. Bollicks.

They aren't even informing parents of this.

Yes, she will be sitting linear. For everything.

I don't know if my school has informed parents of the changes, tbh. Perhaps it was in a leaflet at options evening or something. I've certainly told the kids I teach.

What really annoys me about all these education changes is that I'm a teacher and I have to keep up with developments by watching the news and now reading the bloody daily mail. No one tells us anything.

Coming late to this thread, but was talking to my dad (he's a structural engineer, long time lecturer in a Russell league university, I'm a theoretical physicist) the other night. Both of us think Gove is a muppet, but were also talking about what to do about maths education. I did A levels back in the mid 80s. There were undoubtedly things on the syllabus then (integration by parts, integration by substitution, vast numbers of standard integrals, solid geometry, linear algebra) which are vital to studying physics or engineering at university which now aren't there, meaning that you now need a 4 year degree course to cover the stuff I did in 3 because the maths has to be taught at university 'cos it isn't there at school. But at the same time, maths teaching for the vast majority of pupils who didn't have much of a knack for the subject was crap - they could (and did in many cases) come out of school unable to balance their bank account.

I've a good friend who's a primary teacher, and talking to her about teaching methods, I think primary standards are a lot better than in my school days. And every day maths is taught better, so more people come out understanding what they're doing. But the price that's been paid is that there doesn't seem enough space in the curriculum any more for the hard maths any more (by the way, I did both maths and further maths A levels, As in both, was still stretched at 1st year university level, so it's not a case of filling in the gaps with doing further maths either). So I suppose my question is do any maths teachers out there (Noble) think there's any way of teaching school maths in such a way as to cover the needs of everyone? It's a vitally important one socially because we need to educate everyone, not focus either on an elite or pretend that the country can manage without engineers and physicists.

I'm not sure where you've got your information from, Lurcio but your list of things which aren't on maths A-level these days is incorrect. Integration by parts, substitution, standard integrals are all present. Not sure exactly what parts of solid geometry and linear algebra you are hoping to see as obviously these are quite broad topics!

Interesting Guardian article on Gove here - the comments are also worth a read.

noble you point to the UN's views on Germany's education system. Since when did the UN do or say anything really useful? Look at their record on anything- and it's dismal.

Also , I think we shall have to agree to disagree because I don't see the role of education being that of social engineering. I think each child should have the chance to fulfil their potential, but having lived through the 11+ ( and yes fivecandles I passed it actually- so no need for your pathetic and personal insults) I have maybe seen more than most of how grammars. sec moderns, technical schools worked in the UK.

I went to a Russell group uni but I wouldn't claim from that that I know more than most about polytechnics. Neither did my studying maths at a German technical university give me any insight into non-technical German universities.

It annoys me when people think they can make serious criticisms of education systems just because hey, they went to school.