Does it matter whether the pizza guy has GCSE Latin?

[PooshTun]

By the time your DC gets to 14 it should be obvious whether he is academic or not. If he isn't then why should he be expected to sit through 2 years of Latin, German, English literature etc only to get a D or E?

Wouldn't you rather he spent the next two years doing something that will help him get a job? And if the kid is struggling with English then shouldn't this be the school's focus as opposed to getting the kid to study German or French?

The education authorities (and some MNetters) seem to be of the opinion that ALL school leavers should leave school with a well rounded education. That is a great thought if you have a kid who can't decide whether to study geography or Latin or Egyptology at university.

But with some kids they are not academic and they won't be going to Uni. They would benefit greatly from a two year course that would prepare them for the work place as opposed to studying subjects which somebody somewhere has decided that is necessary in order for a person to be a 'well rounded' person. Some people's main concern is first get a job THEN work towards to being what someone else regards as being a well rounded person.

'I don't have any guilt at anything which allows anyone to fulfill their potential.'

But do you honestly believe that every child who doesn't get into grammar is going to meet his or her potential with the underlying assumption that even if they missed the grammar school by one mark their 'potential' is vocational and not academic.

It's absolute nonsense.

And to interject a personal note, the next one of those aforesaid middle-class pushy parents who has to rapidly readjust their face and struggle for something positive to say when they ask my ds what school he's going to and he tells them will end up eating dirt

As you were. Back to the hypothetical debate........!

'my area went from 1 good school + n mediocre schools to n+1 mediocre schools'

A school can only be as good as its intake. It's pretty obvious that if there's no selection within an LEA each school is going to get broadly average results. Within those results you will have kids who get 9 A* and kids who get none.

In fact, what each individual child is achieving is not necessarily any different whether you put all the clever kids in one school or whether you spread them out.

I think offering 14 year olds more choice would improve behaviour and engagement of kids. However there needs to be better adult education if someone wants to change direction in later years.

I don't even think at 14 year olds you would need formal exams like the 11+ to choose whether someone wanted the vocational or the academic route.

'nor enabled someone like my friend to achieve his dream of becoming a motor mechanic'

Bonkers. A decent school is hardly going to prevent such a dream. There's no reason why a child can't do GCSEs and then go on to be a motor mechanic. However, it would be very difficult for a child to study car mechanics and then go on to study for an academic degree.

Again, people love to present 'vocational alternatives' as somehow beneficial to those who don't get into grammar schools but it fails to acknowledge the huge amounts of kids who would want to pursue an academic route regardless of whether they got into grammar schools or not.

Grammar schools only ever educated about 30% of children. Surely nobody is stupid enough to believe that all 70% of the kids who did not get into grammar school all dream of becoming car mechanics or hairdressers and have no academic ambition at all?

'Far from 'one size fits all' it was 'one size fits nobody' '

That's preposterous. Millions of children have found comprehensive schools enabled them to meet their potential exactly.

five I didn't sat the scenario at my DS's school was akin to the grammar situation did I?
For a start it is happening at 13 not 11, and there is of course much much more choice.

However, the fact remains that there are pushy middle class families who are perfectly happy to send their DC to less academically selective schools, because they think it's right for their DS. They don't think it's second best.

When DD came to leave at 11, we had the choice of grammar, academic day school, or mixed ability school with emphasis on broad education. Bieng a working class arriviste, my initial reaction was to go for the academic day school all the way . But I was overuled. And proved wrong. The mixed ability school has been a wonderful choice.

Wordfactory- is this a state or a private mixed ability school?

Word, you come across as a little bit naive. I would dispute that there is 'no pecking order. No boy feels second rate' in an education system which varies from pay through the nose boarding school to state comps.

'As parents we assume other parents and the school know best and will choose accordingly'

I'm glad that you're happy with your choice but you cannot know what private agonies are being experienced by the parents who would love their child to go to the bilingual school or private school but can't afford it or the grammar school but their child failed by one mark. It is naive to think that if there's enough choice everybody will be happy. In fact, all the evidence says that the more choice there is the less choice there is for the disadvantaged.

You're right that there will be some parents who will actively choose vocational schools or comprehensive schools even if they have the option and the ability to get their children into other sorts of schools but in any form of selective system there will also be a significant number of parents who would like their children to go to the grammar school or private school and are disappointed.

And who feel that because of the 2 tier system their child is being denied opportunities that they would have got in a genuinely comprehsneive system.

seeker it's a private school.

five well all I can say is that I know the vast majoirty of parents in DS year. A number I count as very close friends. And we all feel happy and confident in our choices. They work for our families and our DC.

I think the school I have chosen for DS would be anathama to many (absurdly selective). They certainly don't feel second rate!!! And I don't envy their choices because they wouldn't be the best for DS.

Perhaps you're projecting your own feelings that highly selective always means best?

Private mixed ability most certainly doesn't mean all ability- but you obviously know that, don't you? Very different from a state comprehensive.

A school can only be as good as its intake

Rubbish. Unless your definition of 'good' is Govian league table stuff - that's not what I meant at all.

A good school is one which helps all of its intake to fulfil their potential. Pragmatically that may be easier to achieve if the intake isn't too disparate in their needs. Comps seem to have to be huge to allow for enough sets of different types, that has drawbacks.

Haven't read all the posts so sorry if ive missed/repeat something.
I think regardless of what path people take, English language an maths are essential. I'd hate to live in a world where people can't read, write or do simple maths. Also think history is pretty important. We need to know our past and hopefully learn from it. Oh and then theres science, geography, PE... Even if we dont all get GCSEs in these we do need to learn at least the basics.

word, I think you're missing my point by several hundred miles. Those people who advocate choice in education are by and large those people who stand to benefit from that choice. Of course the parents who chose the boarding school and can pay for it are happy. Of course you are happy because you GOT your choice. But what about those parents who can't afford such choices and find their child is in a sink school when all their friends have gone off to other schools. In the grammar schools the competition is so fierce that up to 9 children will be rejected for every place that is offered. How happy do you think those parents are? And what about the poor children who are likely to have been tutored and examined within an inch of their lives. In order to get those kids to go through that process they have to believe that the school is better than the rest so how are they left feelign when they don't get in??

And it's ridiculous to pretend to know the private feelings about education of all the parents your son's school. I know people who don't even tell their husbands what school they would really like for their child if money and so on were no object. Likewise if their child did not get into the school of their choice they may be the very last person to know this because a decent parent would want to put a brave face on it.

5candles - I tend to the view that there shouldn't be so many parental 'choices' in the state system. Different options according to the child's abilities and inclinations. A return to enough places within these that there aren't 9 candidates per place anywhere. And none of those options should be a 'sink school'.

five why don't you read what I put, rather than what you assume I've put.

I have said my situation is not akin to the grammar school system. However, I refute the idea that all parents want the most academic school around and feel second class if they don't get it.

My point was that this situation where everyone wants their DC to go to grammar school (whether it will suit them or not) is bloody daft. The other options should be equal but different.

And whether you want to believe it or not, I know lots and lots of parents who have actively chosen a less selective school and do not feel second best. And nor do their DC. I've known these parents for nine years. I see a lot of them every day. They are confident and outspoken.

seeker no my DD's mixed ability school is not comprehensive. It is small, highly resourced and the pupils are hand picked (though not for ability). My point was simply that in my area though this school is way less selective than either the day school or the grammar, it is not seen as second rate.

word, you continue to miss my point. I have acknowledged that in any grammar school system or any system where choice is encouraged there would always be some parents who would actively choose the non-grammar school (or non selective school). It's a shame that you don't seem to acknowledge my point that in any grammar school system (or system of selection) there would be more parents who would want their child to go to the grammar school but would be disappointed and that you do not acknowledge how devastating this might be.

You are very lucky in that neither you not anyone you apparently know knows what it feels like not to get their choice.

'My point was that this situation where everyone wants their DC to go to grammar school (whether it will suit them or not) is bloody daft. The other options should be equal but different.'

And, sorry, but this is unbelievably naive.

The grammar school system, by definition, requires competition. If every child who wanted to go to a grammar school got in then it would no longer be a grammar school would it? That means, necessarily, that a significant number of people would be disappointed and would have to go to a school that they considered second best.

Out of interest if you couldn't afford to pay for your child to go to a private school would you be such an advocate of choice? What school would your child have gone to?

'it is not seen as second rate.'

But IT IS a private school that you have chosen and were able to choose. Duh!

'The other options should be equal but different'

My view is that schools should be equal.

But your child is going to a fee paying school which is not going to be equal to the local comp is it? You come across as a little bit Marie Antoinette about this whole thing.

'I've known these parents for nine years. I see a lot of them every day. They are confident and outspoken.'

Given your lack of empathy and understanding, if I was a parent at your son's school and was unhappy with the fact that I couldn't afford to send my child to a private school then you would probably be the very last person I would tell.

But five there are loads of schools my DD couldn't have got into. One of her close friends went off to NLC. There is not a cat in hell's chance my DD could have got in there.

She doesn't care. She doesn't feel a failure. She doesn't feel second best.

These things are about perception.

Look, I know from what seeker has said that in Kent it is not thus. That those DC who don't go to grammar are amde to feel second rate. But my point is that it is the parents fuelling that. In other counties it is not so.

five yes you are right. I am a nasty nasty woman with no mates.

And all the other parents are weeping into their beer while their DSs go off to some of the very best schools in the world . If only I had more empathy I'd see how very very sad they were.