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Interesting: teachers misconception about state school pupils ending in top Unis

382 replies

camaleon · 27/04/2012 09:53

"Fewer than half of teachers at state schools would advise pupils to apply to top universities, a new study shows - but many do not realise that a majority of Oxbridge students come from state schools"

Article here

OP posts:
WorriedBetty · 30/04/2012 11:56

sorry middlesex.. point is the same..

WorriedBetty · 30/04/2012 11:59

Xenia, Your argument is circular - and I think you think you are arguing that money comes from selling businesses not from the activity of the businesses that generate the worth of the business - but even then the money for buying the business needs to come from somewhere else, which could equally be an aggregate of a small amount of service industry salaries, or from taxes or from monetising barter.. do you really know what you are talking about of is this 'bankers/asset strippers are nice blokes' rhetoric??

campergirls · 30/04/2012 12:05

Just to pick up on Xenia's point about the policy change that means universities can recruit unlimited numbers of students at a certain grade level: yes, this is going to make a huge difference, and I don't think parents/prospective students are fully aware of its implications. The key grade boundary though is AAB (not, as Xenia said, ABB).

To give an example of how it might play out in practice:

  • The biggest degree programme in my dept has a standard offer of AAA. We have not been allowed (by the uni) to take in any 'near-miss' candidates in recent years b/c it would have put us over quota. This year, we'll be allowed (probably encouraged) to do so.
  • The second-biggest programme has a standard offer of AAB. They will almost certainly NOT be allowed to take in any near-miss students, as the quota for students with ABB and below is primarily being used to protect student numbers in departments which (while intrinsically very good) teach subjects that are slightly less popular.

So - if your A-level candidates are close to the border AAB/ABB border, it's really worth them going all out to aim as high as they can. They will have a much wider range of options open to them if they can get safely into the AAB zone. And more broadly, this policy is highly likely to have exactly the effect on the sector that Xenia predicts.

titchy · 30/04/2012 12:19

Camper - the grade boundaries will be ABB from next year.

Don't anyone make the mistake of thinking there will be more student places as a result of the removal of the cap - all that happens is that the number of ABB students is simply taken off the total, so there are fewer 'less than ABB' places available to universities.

There will be an extra 5000 (I say extra, in reality again they are just removed from the overall totals as the ABBs are) places next year (there are 10,000 this year) available for universities to bid for as long as their fees are lower than £8500.

So those at the top can expand a bit (not much though - they still have a finite number of lab spaces, rooms in halls etc) as can those at the perceived bottom. Spare a thought for those in the squeezed middle!

IDK · 30/04/2012 12:45

I agree with *Xenia's point that "Solicitors and barristers are just a service industry. We all know the real money in the UK is made by those who sell a business and indeed who may serially do so."

I know that MN likes to concentrate on the top-end so any talk of 'universities' ends up being about Oxbridge and any talk of the 'professions' ends up being about the Magic Circle but RL isn't like that. Most of us are average and most of our children will be average. I don't like the idea of my DC incurring tens of thousands of pounds to become a 'professional': chances are they won't make equity-MC, they will be Joe Average which, as Xenia says, is just a glorified Hired Help. I would rather invest the money in setting the DC up in their own business where they are the ones doing the hiring.

The talk of being 'debt averse' is a red herring. How a degree is paid for is not the question. The question is: is it worth the money at all? It is increasingly looking like the answer is: no, unless you want a job where you are employed by and/or heavily regulated by the government.

Yellowtip · 30/04/2012 12:52

Are you sure you won the case Betty, or did your opponent simply expire?

Your numbers were rubbish and your argument was without either substance or logic.

In addition, it's not especially graceful to castigate DC about whom you know nothing. I think the life of a high earning lawyer in the City does have a lure for DD1 for the moment (as it seems to for very many of the dimwits who surround her), but she won't pursue it if she finds it makes her unhappy.

Yellowtip · 30/04/2012 13:05

IDK perhaps your DC have talents which point them the entrepreneurial way; my DC would actively dislike that life. Not all DC are academic but those who are might choose to play to their strengths.

This thread is about top universities Confused.

MarysBeard · 30/04/2012 13:07

Being a lawyer for me was mind numbingly dull and horribly stressful. Career change advisers see more solicitors than anybody else. I'm glad I did it for a few years though, no regrets, I had something to prove to myself I think.

WorriedBetty · 30/04/2012 13:08

You are having trouble separating arguments and perceptual/emotional leaps. I hope your DD does not share this trait.

Its interesting that you view an examination of whether salary truly reflects a quality filter or not as a 'castigation' of your DD. Personalising arguments like this is unhelpful for both me and you.

As regards the 'running own business and hiring firing' etc. Nice cartoon picture, but if you have a salary of £100K for a few years, from something you allege 'doesn't really make money' it will be easier to set up a business.

Remember those useless people who you call in the tens and twenties to fix your plumbing who come round in a crap van and are fiddling the dole are also 'running their own businesses'... nice.

WorriedBetty · 30/04/2012 13:10

Oh and YT you are still banging the table and shouting 'rubbish'. Have you worked out the percentage of public school kids who go to oxbridge yet? Happy with a back of envelope approach!

campergirls · 30/04/2012 13:30

titchy - the original proposals indicated that the boundary between 'margin' and core would move down year by year, yes. So AAB this year, ABB the next, and so on. But the chief exec of HEFCE has recently said that there hasn't yet been a decision about how the relationship between core and margin will be handled for 2013-14 - or 'At least if there is, we don'tknow about it yet'! So all we know for sure is that the 2012-13 cut-off will be at AAB.

That was announced right at the end of June last year - I remember it clearly b/c we had a pre-applications open day the following weekend, and I had to say then that the university hadn't yet had time to work out what the implications would be for admissions in 2012-13. I wasn't at all happy, and neither were the prospective applicants and their parents!

titchy · 30/04/2012 13:36

camper hot off the press: ABB+ from 2013/14

Yellowtip · 30/04/2012 13:40

Betty I was responding coolly to your comment that DD1, about whom you know nothing, 'would be well advised to get humble first'. That implies that she's arrogant (why? for applying to a MC firm?), or at least lacking in humility. I was not responding to your increasingly tortuous arguments.

breadandbutterfly has posted the figures. I know very well what the figures are (not yours). More clever state school pupils should of course be encouraged to apply to Oxford and Cambridge but just because disproportionately few do, one can't say that all those who are there having come from a private school background are intrinsically thick.

campergirls · 30/04/2012 13:44

Thanks titchy I hadn't seen that (obviously!), I've had my head down over my marking the last few days... The bumpiness and unpredictability that is associated with moving the boundary year on year is really unhelpful, IMO, for both universities and prospective students.

IDK · 30/04/2012 13:46

I wrote a response to you WB but MN's computer has had yet another glitch so I lost it. cba to type it again.

Where did I say your apparent quotation of 'doesn't really make money'? Please do not misquote me.Angry

titchy · 30/04/2012 13:47

No problem camper Smile

yellowtip and worriedbetty please take your squabble off-line - some of us are actually interested in this thread.

Yellowtip · 30/04/2012 13:52

Don't be silly titchy, the thread is about access to top universities and that is what all the central discussion is about. The fact that Betty is very rude, both to myself and others on the thread, doesn't make what we're all saying to Betty irrelevant.

WorriedBetty · 30/04/2012 13:53

Oh I agree that because some bright state school kids don't go to Oxbridge this does not mean that all private school pupils are thick. I have never said that (I know you have heard that - that is your problem!)

  1. I have said that there is more chance of a lower ability private school pupil - say bottom of the top fifth of abilities in the country) - getting in to Oxbridge than a high ability (say in the top 0.5% of abilities in the country) kid from state school getting in. Not precise percentages, back of envelope, but certainly with logic.
  1. I am not saying your DD is arrogant necessarily, but that arrogance is a risk in pursuing an entirely Magic Circle type legal career. There too there is the assumption that you clearly hold that salary and reputation of firm is a filter in favour of excellence.
  1. B&B did not post relevant figures
gelatinous · 30/04/2012 14:00

For what it's worth percentage acceptance to Oxbridge:

All schools Number of schools 2343
% accepted 1.8% (top fifth 5.8% bottom fifth 0.1%)
Academies Number of schools 29
% accepted 0.5% (bottom fifth 0.2%)
Comprehensive schools Number of schools 1307
% accepted 0.8% (top fifth 2.0% bottom fifth 0.2%)
General Further Number of schools 185
Education Colleges % accepted 0.1% (bottom fifth 0.1%)
Independent schools Number of schools 436
% accepted 5.2% (top fifth 7.9% bottom fifth 0.5%)
Modern schools Number of schools 71
% accepted 0.0% (bottom ffth 0.0%)
Selective schools Number of schools 164
% accepted 4.2% (top fifth 5.0%)
Sixth Form Colleges Number of schools 98
% accepted 0.8% (top fifth 1.6% bottom fifth 0.0%)
Tertiary Colleges Number of schools 37
% accepted 0.3% (bottom fifth 0.0%)

Source Sutton trust report here table 3

Betelguese · 30/04/2012 14:01

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MaryA74 · 30/04/2012 14:02

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Yellowtip · 30/04/2012 14:03

Betty:

  1. is what - a hunch?
  1. Then she's evidently happy to take the risk. Or you could argue that she's only interested in the salary and/ or reputation - perhaps she couldn't care two hoots for excellence. Her life, her choice.
StillSquiffy · 30/04/2012 14:30

I do love seeing Betty's posts. It is like Oymandias meets Samantha Brick.

There is an interesting article here which cross references to many of the largest pieces of research on the subject of educational setting WRT success for the moderately gifted child.

If (big IF, I am not omniscient like some) we were to assume that the top end universities seek out the more gifted students, and IF we were to assume that the bell curve of IQ of children entering private school were the same as that of state school children* and IF we were to extrapolate our research piece above, it would be fair to conclude that the level of bias toward private schools at the top universities is almost entirely due to the relatively poorer environment surrounding state school children, where lower aspirations can potentially suffocate bright children, leaving a smaller pool, dominated by private pupils, from which the uni's can select pupils.

Betty's comments about bright people not ending up at the top unis therefore appears to be sadly true in that the bright people in state schools are being failed by the educational environment, whereas the bright people in private schools are not. Gross generalisation of course - there are always exceptions. What I struggle to find evidence for is the assertion that seems implicit in Betty's posts that those private school pupils who do get into the top uni's are inherently thicker than the state school pupils that don't. Although of course if this were the case it would certainly explain Betty's masterly slaying of (no doubt privately educated) Barristers left, right and centre.

*It is an interesting discussion point as to whether private and state pupils start out with the same intellect. Nobility aside, the higher paying professions which can afford to swallow school fees tend to be filled with IQ's higher than average proof. Given that research has shown a statistically sizeable genetic factor is at play with regards to IQ proof, then you might be forgiven for suggesting that the bell curves are not the same on entering school anyway. Of course the correllation falls as children grow and nature is replaced by nurture (again one can extrapolate the research to argue this would affect state school children more negatively than private school children).

** There are, of course, exceptions to this gross generalisation that private school pupils might be more clever simply due to genetics. I offer you, for example, 'Mark Thatcher'

All of this aside, the issue the needs to be addressed is what can be done to raise the aspirations and opportunities of those not lucky enough to hold a golden ticket by dint of birth. The bright children on the private side don't get lost, so how do we stop the bright children on the state side from failing to reach their potential? We all know that - ceritis paribus - the state child with 4As is probably head and shoulders ahead intellectually of the privately educated child with 4As but it shouldn't be like this. That state educated child shouldn't have to get over numerous hurdles to shine. In a true meritocracy the only difference between the two strands of schooling should be the extra-curricular facilitiies and social mix, but it isn't. Private schools dominate in the tougher A levels, they dominate in the universities and then they dominate in the professions. How on Earth do you get the two sides of schooling to line up better against each other? It's not for want of trying and it's not for the skills of the teachers (just check out their IQ's right up there on the attached research). If we all agree that it's down to aspirations and attitudes, then the government is spending our money in the wrong places at the moment.

By the way, I have no meta-analysis to back up my first statement. My research regarding Ozymandias is purely qualitative.

Yellowtip · 30/04/2012 14:53

Ref. the masterful slaying Squiffy: of the six students in DDs' college cohort accepted by MC firms, only one attended an independent school, the rest were state (two comp, three grammar).

wordfactory · 30/04/2012 15:51

That may be yellowtip but the cohort of trainees at most large law firms will contain an over representation of privately educated young people (pro rata iyswim).

At the bar, the over representation is even worse.

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