Tiffin Schools Admission Arrangements

[tiffinboys]

Tiffin Schools (Boys & Girls) have issued their Determined Admission Arrangements for 2013-14. Boths Schools have decided to ignore pleas from the local community and opted to continue with Open Selection.

Though most of the grammar schools have catchment/proximity rules, some even going to the extent of denying applications to sit for their entrance test in breach of Grenwich ruling, Tiffins would continue open selection policies. Only handful of children from Kingston & surrounding areas get places in Tiffins. Most of the places go to the children living at very very far away places, eg. Harrow, Southall, Greenford.

Grammar schools from Bromley (St. Olave & Newstead Wood), Redbridge (Woodford County & Ilford County) or Barnet/Herts (DAO & Latymer) or Slough (Langley) would not allow out-of-catchment children to even apply for admission tests. Other schools like Kent grammars would only give places to children living near to the School. Some schools have most of the places for catchment area (Nonsuch, Wallington etc.).

This year, Reading grammars (Kendrik & Reading) and Chelmsford grammars (both boys & girls) have changed their over-subscription criteria from 100% open selection to 100% catchment and 80% catchment respectively.

It is high time that children from Kingston and surrounding areas also get level playing field. Until all grammar schools are 100% open selection, it is fair that some priority is restored for these children.

We have therefore proposed that Tiffins give 80% places on the basis of proximity to the Schools (or such other Centre point in the Borough, as previously proposed by the LA) to those children who pass the entrance tests. Other 20% may be given on open selection.

This proposal complies with Greenwich/Rotherham rulings. We are aware that it would take lot of persuation for the Governors of these school to accept this proposal. We call upon all parents from Kingston & Surrounding areas t write to the Tiffin Schools in support of this proposal and copy these to your local MPs and Councillors.

I must say with a daughter at Tiffin Girls that the majority do appear to be reasonably wealthy; professional parents etc. DD does have friends with ponies and pools.

Some of the school trips are incredibly expensive but are always fully subscribed.

Ironically some of the poorer ones are the girls who commute from elsewhere.

I don't think anyone could get in now without tutoring - home tuition is not exactly cheap either.

Would just like to point out that Coombe Boys scored 70% A*-C inc maths and English this year at gcse.

While this is certainly better than before, A-C is not a strong measure. How many A-A and how does that compare with Tiffin or Sutton Grammars?

At A-level, Cs would not get place in any RG University.

I think you have to consider Kingston and Surrey schools in context. Unlike most parts of the country there are a huge number of selective private schools. (ie. Kingston Grammar, Hampton, Kings Wimbledon, Lady Ellenor Holles, Surbition High, Claremont to name a few...)

If you look at the results of Kingston schools then none of them are really bad compared with the rest of the country. The comprehensives are very heavily creamed by the private schools as well as tiffins.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/12/html/314.stm

Well of course it doesn't compare with Tiffin/Sutton A and A*S...the boys there are creamed off. Of course they will be getting 100% results.

My ds is at Coombe Boys and predicted As and A*S.....as are many of his cohorts. I have no particular desire for my ds to go to a RG university.

I don't like the dismissive attitude of a lot of Kingston parents to Coombe Boys, which was very prevalent at his primary school. And still exists.

While this is certainly better than before, A-C is not a strong measure. How many A*-A and how does that compare with Tiffin or Sutton Grammars?

At A-level, Cs would not get place in any RG University.*

That is a silly comparison. Tiffin (both) cream off the top 5% or whatever. You need to compare the top set at the local non-selective school (and even then the top of the top set) to get a sensible comparison.

There is certainly a good argument that these types of schools do not "add value" - they take the best in and they achieve what they would have achieved elsewhere.

The reason for going to them is mainly social not educational.

Sorry that should have been in quotes

"While this is certainly better than before, A-C is not a strong measure. How many A-A and how does that compare with Tiffin or Sutton Grammars?

At A-level, Cs would not get place in any RG University."

It is not fair to compare the results of coombe boys to a comprehensive yet alone a super selective grammar school.

Stastically boys tend to do less well than girls at school age because boys are more immature. The very bright/ well off parents in Kingston tend to use private schools far more than the rest of the country.

To make an assessment of a school you really need to look at the results in detail.

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=102608

Clearly Coombe boys achieve amazing things for boys with low SATs results. It is less good for high achieving boys, but still respectable at GCSE level. It is a far better school than lots of comprehensives around the country.

I don't know the school, but I from the internet it looks like that something worrying is happening with the sixth form. Why do so many boys leave? Prehaps there is a logcial explanation.

Obviously there is no problem with sixth form, they are in a federation and OFSTED have just given them outstanding.

I havent read all 15 pages but it does seem that posters want the very best for THEIR children. Good so far, but you cannot change the boundaries and rules to suit your own personal circumstances.

I live in a grammar school area where the fighting to attend the grammars is fierce. I really dont think that you can pass 11 plus without tutoring. Of course someone will come on and say they didnt tutor or do anything to prepare and the DC just passed. I just dont beleive it. I have friends who tutored but until I got to know them better and they felt they could trust me wouldnt admit it in a million yrs!

The fact is that some schools like Tiffin are very sought after and there just arent enough spaces for everyone. You also have to pass the exams. Not everyone will do that.

I opted out of all of this many years ago and have gone private. I believe until vocational qualifications are seen as equally as important i.e a proud parent telling all their DD has got into a top hairdressing or plumbing course will things really change.

I do think (it happens around here all the time) that people move into an area and even claim they have broken up with their partner to move into a key catchment area only to move back once they 'make it up with them'

Of course someone will come on and say they didn't tutor or do anything to prepare and the DC just passed. I just don't believe it.
Personally, i know of only one parent who got two DS into Tiffin School that i believe did so without employing a tutor - but still, if you are DIY - whatever, it's still tutoring/hot-housing; those parents who do it at home do so in the belief that it produces better outcomes for their DC.
So for Tiffins, boys and girls - 100% are tutored to get in - and a good many thereafter in core curriculum subjects throughout all the years they are at the under school. So to speak of outcomes for the children who are creamed off and cohort through and to compare to other schools available locally or nationally is utterly meaningless. There can be no true unbiased measure of progression for these children as there are so many artificial factors coming into play.

*There is certainly a good argument that these types of schools do not "add value" - they take the best in and they achieve what they would have achieved elsewhere.

The reason for going to them is mainly social not educational.*

Agree.

as a caveat ...although that does depend on what you mean by 'the best'. Best at Tiffins particular brand of VR/NVR certainly, but not necessarily all other things.

agree!

Some interesting papers:

Government paper on Grammar Schools:
www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01398.pdf?

Any wonder why parents of bright children go fro grammars?

KS2 performance:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-assessments-at-key-stage-2-in-england-2012-to-2013-provisional

Percentage of children attaining Level 6 in Maths:
England: 7%
Richmond: 19%
Kingston: 15%

Percentage of children attaining level 6 in SPAG (new English test):
England: 2%
Richmond: 7%
Kingston: 5%

Any wonder why Kingston/Richmond parents feel aggrieved by Tiffins' admission arrangements?

Sorry, forgot to acknowledge. For highlighting the above information, thanks to Okanagan & Snowdaddy at 11+ forum.

Also hope that one typo in the above post would be forgiven. I can usually spell 'for' correctly.

SATs levels i do not think are necessarily a good indicator - our DCs are/were educated in a top RoT state primary, Ofsted outstanding across the board - certainly, we count ourselves incredibly lucky in this respect - but the children there were prep'd to destruction for Year x SATs tests - it doesn't necessarily correlate with them being able to perform at that level day on day in a classroom environment
It is merely a snapshot in time. Perhaps as parents we place too much store on SATs as an indicator of ability, which is understandable - since the latest flavour of testing invariably features heavily in the broadsheets most of the time.
Logically then, high performing SATs pupils (level 6sers') from Kot/RoT should account for the vast majority of successful applicants at Tiffins' - yet this clearly is not the case. SATs are curriculum based, whereas Tiffins' entrance tests (well certainly the boys, no longer the girls) are not.
Any wonder why parents of bright children go for grammars? Not entirely convinced that all of them do? It may feel like this when you have DC at grammar, but there are yet still to be found some tantalizing sparkles of educational competence nay brilliance, far and wide beyond...
Moreover, the educational landscape re: secondaries is now changing rapidly in this area particular area for local children (as it did previously for primaries - this is inevitable); and it will be interesting to see the impact of factors such as the recent breaking of link schools status in Richmond borough and the addition of sixth forms to secondaries there. Paradoxically, Kingston parents have more choice this year than ever before - we did not manage to secure a place at TS for DS2; yet received offers from three good/outstanding state secondaries, which left us effectively spoiled for choice - with difficult decisions to be made.
I am sure there are many areas of the country that are far less privileged educationally than us; indeed the figures you cite do kind of say it all.

1. All tests are snap shot at a given time. SATs or any entrance test for selective school.

1. Yes, there seems to be big anomaly between RoT & KT SATs results & the children of these areas in Tiffins.

1. A minor point. DC may have been eligible for 3 schools based on where you live, but he would have received only one offer.

1. In view of your current view about grammars & Tiffins in particular, I am surprised that you put your DC through the tests & the rest.

Wish your DC all the best at his new school.

Speaking as an insider with a daughter at TGS I do not think the school itself is that good. A lot of parents tutor not because their girls are dimmer than the rest but to fill in gaps in teaching.

The school gets consistently good results because all the girls are clever. Some teachers are good and some simply cannot teach despite their impressive qualifications.

Behaviour is fine with generally compliant and well behaved girls, that is what I think attracted us to the school. Pastoral care is non existent and the school handles complaints very badly, particularly those about teaching.

If anyone really thinks that teaching at TGS is poor, they always have the option to choose their nearby comprehensive school from the very beginning or at least from 6th form. As far as I have heard, except for the girls not meeting the entry requirements, all other girls stay at TGS and many new joins from other comprehensives and perhaps also from independent schools.

TGS is one of the top ten schools in whole of England. There is little point in trying to undermine it, even though their admission arrangements needs a major overhaul.

If you change the admission arrangements, you may find it is no longer one of the top 10 schools in England but languising somewhere in the rankings with the Kent grammar schools. Clever children from aspirational families (as they would be as it is an opt in system) can do an awful lot on their own to make up for a few poor teachers.

Would it be like that? Kent has some good example of girls selective a with distance policy and are as good as TGS.

I actually said that some( not all) of the teaching is exceptionally poor even at KS4 - many parents are savvy and make sure their daughters spend Saturday with a tutor.

It is rumoured that the AS results were well down which they don't publish. A lot of girls do leave at 6th form - many for independents which is my personal choice. I haven't hired a tutor but I am in a minority. It will be interesting to see if next years GCSE results are as stellar. In one class the girls are teaching themselves and the school is not interested.

TGS is only in the top 10 or so because it takes the brightest and/or those committed to working hard.

@tiffinboys In view of your current view about grammars & Tiffins in particular, I am surprised that you put your DC through the tests & the rest. Meow!!!
DC was not 'put through' the tests - he chose to sit them. Way you see it there is Tiffin only, rest of education in this country is crap - not a very balanced perspective.