'new' grammar schools in kent...

[oliverreed]

well, not technically. The local authority have been given the go-ahead for two (I think) annexe grammar schools in Sevenoaks. Gove is surely rubbing his hands with glee. I agree with the decision as pressure on places in this area is causing a lot of heartache for many families whose children are travelling a long way, but is it paving the way for the creation of new grammar schools.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts?

Oooh which one is that seeker?

Thomas Telford.....

Jalapeno, re: "Comps with tiny catchments in affluent areas aren't as successful and I'm willing to bet that's because of the private schools you'll find in the absence of a decent grammar school"...

I absolutely agree with this as this is my experience where I live as I said at the beginning of the thread somewhere!

All the high ranking comps have hidden selective entry or exclusive catchment areas- have to really, otherwise all statistics would be meaningless!
One trouble with a comp, is that people often say how good it is to be able to move between sets- but realistically, after a few weeks the second set just haven't covered what the top set have, and movement just becomes harder and harder. And league tables are set up to reward passes, not getting an a* instead of an a. I often wonder why we don't have separate schools for the next 25%, and so on ( in Kent), logically it would make more sense.

My DCs top performing comp is next to a council estate, has genuine movement between sets, even in year 11. On the other hand parents do fight to get those council houses, and house prices are inflated near the school. It is also not an area of depravation.
Another top performing school I know is struggling to keep its results, as it's catchment shrinks and it becomes less middle class.

Quite. And more than that, you can't move between comps either.

Opponents of grammars are fixated on how unfair it is that a child can be picked for a school at 11 on ability. But ignore hw unfair it is that in the comprehensive system, all children are picked at 11 not on ability, but on house prices/private schol fees.

Basically, under the comp system, the rich get a good education, either directly - they pay for private schols, or indirectly - they pay to live in the catchment for the naice middle class comp.

The ids who live in the rough areas get no options.

At least with grammars, all kids frm all areas can access a top quality education, based on wealth not money.

I'd rather live in a meritocracy over a plutocracy any day.

The 11+ cut-off for grammars could be resolved in many ways - by introducing a 13+ as well for late developers, or using the German system - there is no exam for entry to Gymnasiums, and entry is decided by teacher recommendation instead, based on grade averages etc.

So there is no inherent need in a selective system for a one-day exam to decide children's futures.

@ talkingnonsense

Top performing, as in on the first page of that ft link? Or just good with a good ofsted?

B&B: in Sutton the option considered by many to be the worst in the borough is within one of the largest council estates in the country. To be fair it does get the lowest results but they still get good results. That is because many so-called MC people like myself, well educated, professional but possibly public sector can't afford private school fees, even with a generous bursary and may well not be within the catchment of the "big house" comps although based on this years stats we could be lucky. A mid terrace 3 bed ex-LA house near C Boys school would cost between £250-£300k and a "desirable location" for a 3-bed semi you're looking at £350k at least. School fees just aren't an option for many motivated, well educated MC parents so grammars and comps alike are not considered to be "sink schools" and generally are well regarded and expectations for all DCs high.

The point is that the GS are not offering a superior education but a different one tailored to bright children (here I agree with the meritocracy thing), with a positive knock on effect to the other schools in the area.

Seeker I'm off to google that school...

Mummytime: loving the concept of an area of depravation

Me too

Seeker yes I agree about these banding tests. HT doesn't seem to specify what %age of each band he'll take in advance so what's the point? Just looks like he'll take all the top ones. This also selects for the parents interested in their DCs taking entrance exams which is one of the criticisms of GSs so I agree with you on this one.

@jalapeno - if I understood your post correctly, even in the council estate, house prices are still sufficiently high that educated middle class people end up living there. i suspect that in genuinely poor areas, where house prices are dirt cheap and the average residents are not poorer middle class public sector professionals, the results might not be quite as good?

I believe that super-selectives take the top 5-10% of the ability range. There is probably no way of measuring that accurately. I wasn't saying that comps with tiny affluent catchment areas aren't successful - they generally are, but just that the very highest achieving comps all seem to have something odd amongst their admissions criteria.

I actually found the link on the Latymer thread on secondary. Hope it works.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/11/html/205.stm

And Dover Grammar School is a grammar school. It selects about the top 25% of the ability range but, presumably, from in and around Dover alone.

B&B don't get me wrong, a lot of the houses are still council owned. It isn't a "desirable" place to live tbh. But it is more affordable for people that are on say £30k each and can never afford £350k houses but want to own a property.

CecilyP 25% is too many for a grammar intake imo. And the superselectives must be a smaller %age than that around here but again I don't have the stats.

I know a non-grammar school in Sevenoaks where they offer triple science and an MFL (modern foreign language) and the students are banded according to ability with children in the top sets having passed for grammar school, but where there is flexibility for children to move in and out of sets. It is called Knole Academy and it was rated 'good and rapidly improving' using the new ofsted criteria in December. There is no need for a grammar annex in Sevenoaks, nor do parents have to send their children long distances to get a good education. They just need to stop being so snobby and give their local secondary school a chance.