state/public, textbooks, achievement and so much more

[olguis]

Hi everyone,

I will try to formulate the best I can, but there is so much going around my head in trying to make sense of this educational system and the future - please, forgive me for the length and lots of questions.

Pre-history: moved to Britain 3,5 years ago, DS was 3,5 then, now 7. I am an academic, hence value academic achievement. Educated in my home country (outside the EU) and in the EU in educational systems, I think, closely resembling the French one. I now teach at quite a low-ranking Uni, and sometimes my students can't write a sentence correctly.

So, overall, I have developed a huge educational anxiety about my son's education. On the one hand, I have my students who are barely literate at 18; on the other hand, the primary school my son goes to satisfies me less and less (with a view at the 18 years old). It is a South London school, a very desirable and a good one. Everyone I know praises it highly.

DS is in Y2. I find it hard to accept that there are not any textbooks and notebooks and it is hardly possible to find out what it is they are actually taught and whether he succeeds in learning it (unless you go to school and look at what he's done every week). Y1 and Y2 partly have been very rocky with lots of supply teachers and changing teachers through the year. I trusted school to do the Engish learning and focused on his native tongue at home. In autumn Y2 I discovered he is behind in spelling and can't subtract 7 from 9 in his head. I even took him to be tested for dyslexia as he appears bright but was exhibiting such bad results. The dyslexia center found very high intelligence, no dyslexia and quite low working memory, especially visual memory.

I started doing English spelling with him following a book they recommended that rely less on visual memory and he skyrocketed in writing. I also did work with him on math a lot and he is now a star pupil in all subjects (progress from mid class in November to top tables in everything by February with my intervention).

However, I know feel I cannot trust the school and have to monitor his curriculum and teach him myself. (when I tried to raise the question of him not learning in Y1, the teacher basically told me he is average and not capable of more). He is basically getting home educated while spending most part of the day in school. This is ridiculous.

I guess, my questions are: is his school not very good despite everyone thinks it is? Or maybe I blame the school because he has poor working memory and while I can teach him to achieve 'star' level, state school simply can't do it?

Do public schools have textbooks? Would they have a structure that would allow me to relax in terms of monitoring his progress myself? Is a public school an answer to us? (Not that I can really afford it).

I was really terrified to see him so behind and then amazed to see him progressed so fast. At some point, when I looked at the program of study for the term teachers give us and what he learned, there wasn't any correlation, as if he was absent all the time. However, now the teacher tells me he is a pleasure to teach, inquisitive mind, very good in everything he does, mature, etc. I feel it is only because I (and him) put effort into it outside school. But I can't do this forever, really, can I?

So, again sorry for the extra-super-long post and I guess it is generally about being confused about everything: school in UK, different attitudes, different structures, different cultures, etc etc
Maybe someone with a history similar to mine can share their views, conclusions, experience.

Thanks for help!

P.S. The school has recently lost its outstanding status to a good one. It has a special art status and multiple awards for everything. However, they do art for one month a year only. Children Y2 don't draw, they don't use paint, etc. There are no chess club, dance or choir after school. The PE is about skipping - no games learnt.

When I visited it three years ago I won my heart by the atmopshere and what was displayed. Now I think I've been fooled by marketing. Or maybe the school is going down? Or maybe all schools are like that? If you ask other parents, they are totally happy, because the school is indeed very safe, tackles bullying very well, kids are sociable, friendly, - socially and emotionally it is a great school. Just not educationally, it seems...

I'm not sure what to say really. My children are in independent schools, and they have textbooks in both junior and senior. Some of them we buy, and some are provided by school.

I think if I had a child in a state school, I would want them to have their own copy of all the text books. They are pretty easy to buy from Amazon.

If the school simply doesn't use text books, you may be able to get some texts targeted at Home Educators. I have American books called, "What your first grader needs to know", "What your second grader needs to know", etc.

The spelling is a bit different obviously, and social studies have different topics, but overall it is a good way to know what they should be doing at each stage, especially in things like Music, that it a bit of a secret in state primaries. It doesn't cover everything at the same stage as here, for example Science, which is taught younger in the UK. Another set of texts to buy is from Galore Park publishers - they provide textbooks for traditional independent schools.

Were a very good state primary and I could have written your post. If you want your child stretched significantly beyond national expectations you need to educate privately IMO. In our school they stretch only those considered to be extremely able, these receive lessons with a separate teacher, perhaps only one or two in a year group. This decision is made early and rarely revised. Our non selective prep boasts that all children in the juniors work at least 2 years ahead of their state school counterparts. I appreciate that's not an appropriate strategy for all but my belief is there should be very high academic expectations. I hear, all too often 'isn't it marvelous, he's where he needs to be'.

I find many friends think there's plenty of time for academic achievement later and children's happiness is the only/main thing that's important, at least up until about the age of 11.

It sounds like you've done very well giving the support at home. I think you'll find you'll need to continue to do this if your values are as you've described. Of course all schools vary. Our school has lots that's excellent about it but class sizes are large and teachers can't differentiate & generally know children inside out/give lots of one-on-one attention in the way they can in a prep. Our school also doesn't give homework to speak of and the prep expects children to be able to read in reception and expects about 20-30 minutes of homework in Y1 (per night) plus reading.

thanks MrsMeaner for info about textbooks, - galore park seems interesting, and maybe I can continue home ed ) following those books.

Thanks, Cortina, for reassurance. Sometimes I feel just mad because I seem to be the only person experiencing this as something difficult. 'He is where he should be,' - I hear too often, but how do they know where he should be, really? As an educator, I'd rather think he should be where he can be, no?

So, the answer is my educational philosophy /values are more akin to good public school or a super good state which I haven't yet seen?

I am also not from the UK and have experienced similar frustration. Having said that, most of the parents who I would class as "friends" or close acquaintances would say the same about our school and have learned the hard way that if they don't compensate at home, their child will not reach their potential. Having said that, when I was moving here and asked beforehand a few people, everyone raved about our school, ofsted outstanding in all areas, amazing results and huge waiting list.

I have very little experience of private schools but I would be surprised if the more selective ones have the same laid back attitude...

All independent schools are different just as all state schools are different. You could go and visit some independent preps in your area and make a judgement for yourself about whether they would offer an education closer to what you are looking for? Then think about whether you could find the money for it if you found one you really liked.

If you post on here which preps are near to you people will have opinions on which ones might offer a more traditional approach (which seems to be what you are after?).

I have experience of both the state and private system and I know which one I prefer! That said there are good and bad state and private schools and choosing the right one for your child is a mindfield. My DD was state educated from reception till Easter term of year 9; my DS was state educated from reception till year 7. My DD chose a state sixth form and my son is going to the same 'outstanding, beacon' college

My DD had a difficult time at her state and private schools, while my son was frustrated at his state school and flourished in private education. They are both bright kids and in fact my DS is considered to be extremely intelligent. Both DC were diagnosed with dyslexia after joining their private schools, (at the ages of 15 (DD) and 11 (DS)). My DD diagnosis came after her brother's school noted his difficulties. I cannot fault his old prep school. DS gained a scholarship to his senior school in year 9 and he's now mostly receiving A* in GCSE papers.

You are right to ask questions and yes Ofsted reports give some answers but not all. If your DS head teacher is unable to give you the responses you require, I suggest you have a look around at alternative state and private schools. I watched my DD lose all her confidence because she couldn't understand why she was dropping down sets in every subject. I was constantly either on the phone to her state school teachers or at the school and no answers were ever forthcoming from this 'outstanding' comprehensive.

Its never easy, but if you chose to move your son to an independent school, you really have to consider if you can afford to do this again should you have another child? There was no way we would have had one child in the state sector and one in private. I wish you and your son luck.

Thanks everyone so much for your reassurance! I feel much more normal now.

I use Galore Park for science, English, history & MFLs with my home educated children; they are excellent. I haven't used their maths or Latin but have friends who do so & again they are highly recommended.

diogenidae, do they (Galore Park) then have all those different subjects' books from Y3 - and what are they? History, geography? What is MFLs? And which ones do you use for maths? And when do you start Latin (I thought this is only secondary school)? I hope you don't mind so many questions. How do you choose material to teach your kids?

Look at the Galore Park website.

I'm foreign, we never had textbooks in primary school, in the 1970s.
OP's school sounds pants in many areas, but it's not at all similar to my experience of modern English state schools (ours is only rated Satisfactory, maybe it's hugely much easier to get an Outstanding or Good in a deprived area of London?). DC in state primary have notebooks but notebooks don't come home (except homework, or when full up, y5 DC brought 4 full notebooks home today: maths, English, RE & something else).

DC in private primary did have some textbooks, but only for use in class they tended to be in tatty condition. I've had hugely much less feedback about the private-ed DC progress than the state-ed DC, tonnes of info on them. And our state school much more rigorous and challenging education, too (but we chose private for other reasons).

We normally get all schools books home at the end of the year (except in the current financial climate they are trying to keep some going from one year to the next). They don't use textbooks at primary, but do teach to a very high standard. Much higher than my primary which let me just follow my own interests a lot of the time, and had some textbooks which were horrifically racist etc. even for the 70s. (I got a degree from a Russell group uni etc. BTW).

If you are concerned about how your child will express themselves in writing, then you need to ask the school what they are aiming for and see how your child is progressing. But judging the standard of education by the standard seen in students at low ranked Unis isn't really relevant. Most Uni students come from State schools, and that is true even of Russell group ones until you get to Oxford and Cambridge.

It is actually getting harder to be Outstanding in deprived areas, as results have become dominant in the criteria and looking at the value added has been reduced.

I know people compare education with what they know and with how they've been educated themselves. So, say, if you've been educated in the UK in the system in which, for instance, grammar wasn't taught to ppl who are now well over 40, the fact that it is not taught now wouldn't bother you. But it bothers me, because I think a bit of grammar is a part of foundational education, as well as a bit of drawing, and good mental arithmetic.

I am really not looking for an excuse to like (good) public schools, but looking for some sanity. Why can't I use the school I pay taxes for? Why a teacher in my DS's school not train him in mental maths, but finger calculations and using number line? It is fine for a while, but instant recall should come at some point. Oh, I know why - because subsequent waves of government with their regularions authorised use of certain devices in SATS Key stage 1, such as a number line and a number square (most useless piece of shite, IMO), so it's more important to teach all children to use those devices securely and show good results for the school than teach children instant recall that is not tested but is abosultely crucial to any further progress in maths.

mummytime - why is it inaccurate to judge the standard of education by students in a low-rank uni? They are educated in these very schools, and they go to the Uni, not FE college, not drop out, not just work straight after school. A lot of my students are mature students coming to higher education later in life openly telling me they have never learnt to write as this wasn't a school's priority. I then sit with them and start explaining the basic structure of a sentence in English...

So, again sorry for the extra-super-long post and I guess it is generally about being confused about everything

As an aside, your terminology is not quite right. Schools funded by the Government are usually called State schools. Schools funded by fees are usually called Private or Independent. As you know from your 'low-ranking Uni' experience, some educational establishments like to differentiate themslves and portray themselves as better than the opposition. Public schools are a small sub-set of Private schools - older, more expensive, selective and only to be found at Senior level.

I don't think your school sounds like it should ever have been outstanding, OP - my children both went to an ordinary primary which was rated satisfactory and is now rated good under the new OFSTED regime. They were certainly not allowed to slip, their teachers always gave suggestions for improvement however well they were doing (which was very well) and we had constant feedback.

I think textbooks are possibly a bit of a red herring - what I was looking for (and got) was concrete comments on homework done, especially in writing, structured spellings (i.e. working on a particular set of peculiarities of the English language) and building a solid foundation in maths (i.e. revisiting a previous topic and then going deeper and more broadly into it to promote understanding of concept as well as methodology)

I got all those things from my DDs' state school - you are not getting them, therefore your school is not up to scratch. Whether you opt for private or state (and I don't know what else is available in your area), your DS deserves better.

Oh, and I am so in agreement with you on the importance of correct spelling and grammar!

I have just posted a question which echoes yours in many ways: I am also very disappointed with the current state education system in the UK, although I am comparing it with the very good state education I was lucky enough to receive in this country in the 70s and early 80s (I am very old!!). I do think that some teachers, possibly through no real fault of their own, see a child hitting all the (terribly low) standard targets and happily turn their attention elsewhere. My bright daughter has been poorly served by her current school, I feel. She does all she is asked (and more) but is mainly ignored. She is on the G&T register but gets absolutely no extension work at all. Yesterday she was told to stop reading the book she was reading because she should have been working through a spelling exercise book. She (re)explained that she had finished the book of exercises last week and was waiting for the next book. Her teacher said he'd have to test her spelling first and told her to sit and wait. So she did. For the rest of the lesson. But how could a teacher tell her to do nothing in a literacy class rather than read the Weirdstone of Brisingamen? Sorry, bit of a rant!

senua, thanks for correction, amazing, I have never known this! It took me 3,5 years to really understand anything about the local educational system, and actually I feel like I am only at the beginning of this process!

pointythings, I mention textbooks because if the teacher is not up to scratch, you can easier support at home if you know what they are supposed to be learning. Basically, the way the system currently works seems to mean that if you happen to have bad luck (teacher ill, young, a replacement, etc) your child can miss out tremendously, for instance, half a year of learning, and you wouldn't really know until much later.

I would like to make the point that even highly-selective academically-focused independent schools use numberlines and number squares

Ah, The Weirdstone of Brisingamen [wistful]
I went to a truly dire state school in the 70s/80s, but our teacher read that aloud to us in Y5. I adore that book.

My school in the 70s had textbooks, but they were ancient and there was no syllabus. If you want to know what your child should be learning then google the National curriculum, which should give you a rough idea for the whole year.
In year 2 they should be learning spelling, punctuation (commas and full stops), capitalisation and possibly paragraph structure.
The problem with Ofsted is that it is a snapshot, and things can move on as you have noticed.
There are tonnes of materials to help parents (just go into your local WHSmiths or try the BBC Bitesize website). As for mental Maths my kids are far better at Mental Maths than I ever was (if not quite as good as my Mother). In year 2 though your child has barely started, and has plenty of time to recover from any deficiencies.

I am English and I share your pain and experience of the modern education system Olguis. I too know how poor UK university undergrads are becoming. I was working in a university ( a Russell Group no less and yes, we had problems too) . I was "retired off" and I now work in an independent school.

To answer your question - independent schools generally do have text books for all the pupils. They also generally offer a more academic and traditional education of the kid you might be used to yourself.

That said, I had my own DS in state school rather like yourself and I recognise your experience. My DS is yr 1 now ( but he is still 5 , he wont turn 6 until August, which is the reason I have made the decisions I have) . DW and self currently home school. Have you thought of Home School? Might be better to teach your DC yourself than have to suppliment or even undo the problems of school

I'm also in the situation of dd going to state school and then teaching her as well at home, for much the same reasons. I would second looking in WH Smiths and at the BBC bitesize.
We are in a grammar school area. It seems worth putting in the extra effort now in the hopes she gets in.

mummytime, could you tell me why does a DS have to catch up (as he 'has plenty of time' ahead as you say) rather than not fall behind and progress ahead which he is perfectly capable of? It's not that he enjoyed falling behind or needed it - he is ambitious, he could see he couldn't write or count as well as others, his self-esteem suffered, he was also bored at the same time. I think it sounds like a recipe for disruptive behaviour, doesn't it?

Why a school that requires 100% attendance (it's like a prison, really, I am now afraid to keep DS at home with a cold due to threatening letters), goes on until 15.30 (longer than in many 'developed' countries), has a longer school year than many countries (we used to have a whole summer off), is a place where DC fall behind?

jabed, thanks for your answer! Do you plan to transfer your DS to the independent you work in later on? Is your ind school requires too much so that your super-young DS would have been too stressed there - is that your reasoning? And if you plan to go independent (would you get a discount?) - when do you think is best?

And yes, grammar school. Would it be different (if he ever gets in)?