state/public, textbooks, achievement and so much more

[olguis]

Hi everyone,

I will try to formulate the best I can, but there is so much going around my head in trying to make sense of this educational system and the future - please, forgive me for the length and lots of questions.

Pre-history: moved to Britain 3,5 years ago, DS was 3,5 then, now 7. I am an academic, hence value academic achievement. Educated in my home country (outside the EU) and in the EU in educational systems, I think, closely resembling the French one. I now teach at quite a low-ranking Uni, and sometimes my students can't write a sentence correctly.

So, overall, I have developed a huge educational anxiety about my son's education. On the one hand, I have my students who are barely literate at 18; on the other hand, the primary school my son goes to satisfies me less and less (with a view at the 18 years old). It is a South London school, a very desirable and a good one. Everyone I know praises it highly.

DS is in Y2. I find it hard to accept that there are not any textbooks and notebooks and it is hardly possible to find out what it is they are actually taught and whether he succeeds in learning it (unless you go to school and look at what he's done every week). Y1 and Y2 partly have been very rocky with lots of supply teachers and changing teachers through the year. I trusted school to do the Engish learning and focused on his native tongue at home. In autumn Y2 I discovered he is behind in spelling and can't subtract 7 from 9 in his head. I even took him to be tested for dyslexia as he appears bright but was exhibiting such bad results. The dyslexia center found very high intelligence, no dyslexia and quite low working memory, especially visual memory.

I started doing English spelling with him following a book they recommended that rely less on visual memory and he skyrocketed in writing. I also did work with him on math a lot and he is now a star pupil in all subjects (progress from mid class in November to top tables in everything by February with my intervention).

However, I know feel I cannot trust the school and have to monitor his curriculum and teach him myself. (when I tried to raise the question of him not learning in Y1, the teacher basically told me he is average and not capable of more). He is basically getting home educated while spending most part of the day in school. This is ridiculous.

I guess, my questions are: is his school not very good despite everyone thinks it is? Or maybe I blame the school because he has poor working memory and while I can teach him to achieve 'star' level, state school simply can't do it?

Do public schools have textbooks? Would they have a structure that would allow me to relax in terms of monitoring his progress myself? Is a public school an answer to us? (Not that I can really afford it).

I was really terrified to see him so behind and then amazed to see him progressed so fast. At some point, when I looked at the program of study for the term teachers give us and what he learned, there wasn't any correlation, as if he was absent all the time. However, now the teacher tells me he is a pleasure to teach, inquisitive mind, very good in everything he does, mature, etc. I feel it is only because I (and him) put effort into it outside school. But I can't do this forever, really, can I?

So, again sorry for the extra-super-long post and I guess it is generally about being confused about everything: school in UK, different attitudes, different structures, different cultures, etc etc
Maybe someone with a history similar to mine can share their views, conclusions, experience.

Thanks for help!

jabed
Sorry, I misread your post. You had your DS in the state school and you now homeschool. I can't really homeschool as I work full time :(

My children go to a truly Outstanding school. DS did have problems as he is dyslexic, at times his abilities were under estimated, but his achievements were usually at least at the national average levels, however for his school this was well below average.
I have always taken my children out of school when ill. I have occasionally allowed them to be absent when they were in no mental state to be in school. Some schools do pressurise you not to allow your child any days off, personally that would be a reason for me not to send my child there. However, I do understand their pressures, as they are given government percentage targets on attendance and it can be easier to intimidate the parents whose children are rarely absent rather than those parents are living chaotic lives, can't be bothered or are aggressive to authority.

If you are really that unhappy with your child's schooling, you should look around for an alternative. Look at both state and private (if you can afford it). But you will have to accept that education in the UK is different to that you grew up with, but that doesn't necessarily mean worse.

I am glad you have found an outstanding school for your children! I would also certainly not dismiss the education system of an entire country because it is different.

Part of my question was: is it possible that while the school my DS goes to is considered outstanding, it might not be outstanding for my DS, and then, the second question, how would I know when visiting other state schools, what to look for, to make sure I can identify a good school. As I mentioned I absolutely loved the school my DS is currently in when I first visited it. My son's class then have a succession of not very good teachers (young teacher covering another on maternity leave returning mid year, then supply for half a year). It might even be that other parents in my DS school did not experience any of this. A good school, in my opinion, would not allow this to happen, but how on earth can you conclude this from a visit? Or shall I specifically look for schools that use textbooks and notebooks that travel home, so if my son is unlucky again I can spot and support him?

I think your expectation of state schooling in the uk is totally different to reality.
If you started instead from the point of what does it mean to be educated in the uk ? and then compared schools, you'd be able to see how ofsted inspections are using criteria to assess schools.

Briefly (my view) to be educated in the uk means - to achieve a basic level of reading writing and maths (called level 4) at age 11, to then go on to achieve somewhere around 5 GCSE's in a variety of subjects graded A-C - thats' the basic aim really - any school getting a higher percentage than the average through the system and popping them out with higher attainment levels is a bonus and may well be sought after by parents.

To be educated in the uk state system does not, never has, and can never be, about educating every child to reach their maximum potential, the country simply can not afford to do this.

Of course it should and can be about educating every child to reach their maximum potential be it 5 A-C GCSEs or 11 A* GCSEs. And not just supply a basic level of education for all.

Don't be ridiculous.

"the country simply cannot afford to do this"... Rubbish the country cannot afford NOT to do this.

Noble ideas but not reality either present or historically.
In the uk it is essential to have a work-force where a large proportion are non-specialist workers, regardless of everyone's potential, if academic qualifications can not be translated into employment there grows a disparity between taxes raised and funding required to educate the young.

Olguis, there are sevral reasons we ( DW does most of the home schooling) decided to take DS out of state school.

Firstly he is very young . He is August born and in the system he was barely turned four when the local school dictated to us he had to start school. DW was unhappy about this anyway. He is very young but we sent him to the village school. After a term there some issues arose concerning his writing . I taught him to write before he went to school because it was on their " must do list" ( a load of hyped rubbish actually as no one elses DC was able to do any of those things and we sepent hours teaching our DS to do as so called required.

Anyway, by Easter his class teacher was suggesting he was not performing suitably - yet I knew he was ahead of them . I went to see them. I was horrified by what I saw and we took him out of school. MNers suggested home educating. He is very young and that is the main reason we keep him home at the moment .

I did look at my school prep but its an hours commute - long way for a little boy. Added to which they had no places in his year group. He is very bright and prep principal suggested we could advance him by a year - fine but I felt he is still too young emotionally to cope with being in a class of kids a year older , let alone two years older. So we will home school until he is 7 and then he will go into prep.

Yes, I will get a discount for putting him in my school. We may though select the nearer prep . We were impressed with it although it is a Christian School
(no issue with religion myself) but they didnt have places in his year group either.

Bottom line- we are waiting on a suitable place either in my schools prep or the other one. Local school on the other hand has tons of places ( you can guess why I am sure)

Of course... which is why some people's potential is reached when they gain say 3 GCSEs and then, I don't know, go on to work in say hairdressing and some people's potential is to gain all the GCSEs they took, all the A-levels they took and go on to university and become surgeons.

If we all only achieved the basic education you suggest we are provided with where would all of our doctors, scientists, teachers etc... come from?

I really don't understand your argument. I don't remember having textbooks at primary school... I went to a state primary school, a state secondary school and a grant maintained grammar school and my teachers did their best to challenge me... Today I have a Physics degree and a PhD thanks to this so called basic education the country and the teachers could only supply.

Anyway this is deviating off the OP.

Olguis which book did you use that helped your son with spelling? My son too had a poor visual memory.

Thanks

Sorry yes am deivating - will start a new thread, it is quite interesting - I always assumed that everyone knew in the state system you get a basic education if you want any more you have to pay or teach yourself.

I don't think your experience of UK education is typical, OP. It's certainly true that there is a whole generation of people in the UK who were not taught grammar, but that's no longer the case.

My year 2 dd is at a "good" state school. She is certainly taught grammar and punctuation, and she regularly gets excellent input on how to improve her writing. Mental maths is very much part of the curriculum, and the children have regular timed tests in this area each week, levelled according to their ability. Spellings are also taught systematically, focusing on phonic patterns, prefixes, suffixes etc.

It is a good school and gets good results. The emphasis is certainly not on getting all the children to the expected level - it is very much about getting all children to maximise their potential, and some children do exceptionally well. It also happens to be a very diverse school, and many of the parents are originally from overseas, working as academics at the nearby (good ) university. They do sometimes find the uk system confusing, but on the whole, they are very happy with the education their kids are receiving.

In a former role, I have worked in overseas primary schools with more traditional systems, and DH was taught in a much more conservative educational culture. We are both delighted with the progress that dd is making, but if we weren't, we would move her without hesitation.

What you say about your DS's school would be ringing alarm bells for me, and I don't think you should just put it down to the differences between uk state education and the system you're used to overseas. There are good and bad state schools IMO, and the ofsted rating isn't always the best way of distinguishing one from another. Have a look at other schools near you - both state and independent - and see if you can find somewhere that would deliver something closer to the kind of education that you're looking for.

Sorry yes am deivating - will start a new thread, it is quite interesting - I always assumed that everyone knew in the state system you get a basic education if you want any more you have to pay or teach yourself.

That hasn't been my experience, really. Not as a student or a parent.

RosemaryandThyme
What you say actually seems like an answer to my question! It is absolutely core to the topic. It explains everything. It's not a coincidence Marxism is so well alive in the UK, I sometimes feel I am in the XIX century...

So, what you're saying means Britain hasn't fully experienced a relatively brief XXth century humanist breakthrough; it kind of always retained its class system and related education structure. Basically, it means that Soviet propaganda was absolutely correct.

darthsillius
It's called 'Alpha to Omega'.
I find when my son is systematically explained the few rules/ tendencies that the English language has, he applies it in his spelling. Like, for instance, that ck is always at the end, never at the beginning of the word, no word ends in v, - there are other resoucres doing this, but here everything is brilliantly grouped and it worked very well for us.

darthsillius
you may find my examples obvious, there are three levels in the book, and within each level, different levels of difficulty, - and I guess I need it for my son also because in addition to poor visual memory English is not his mother tongue. Maybe your situation is different, but I can't reccommend the book enough

jinsei
Which year do your DC sit times maths sessions and do systematic suffixes? And do you mind tellling me (approximately) which area do you live in?

I live in the midlands, OP. DD is 6 and in year 2.

She has been having weekly spellings tests since reception - for the first couple of years, they focused on phonic patterns and then they started looking at prefixes and suffixes some time earlier this year (shortly after the start of year 2). I should probably note that the children get different lists of spellings to learn, based on their current ability. DD is in the top group, and I think they are the only ones working on prefixes & suffixes at the moment. As far as I know, children in the other groups are still working through the phonic patterns.

The timed maths tests started in year 1, and are held once a week. They start off very simple - just ten or fifteen basic addition/subtraction questions to complete in a two-minute period. They gradually build up to bigger numbers, longer tests and more questions, then they add multiplication & division etc. The idea is that the children have to answer every question correctly within the time available before they can move up to the next level - they get quite competitive about it, but it's all good fun!

Just to give you an idea of the level of the maths tests, I think dd gets a mix of questions on multiplication up to 10 x 10 and related division facts as well as addition/subtraction with 2-digit numbers. I think they get around five minutes to answer 75 questions. She is on one of the highest levels in the class, but not the highest. Some of the other kids are still doing the basic addition & subtraction.

Hi OP - I've not read Russian propaganda so I can't comment on that but can say with total certainty that the social class divides are alive and kicking all over Britain but that would be a whole other thread !!!

My "basic state education" got me to Oxford. As it did for many of my fellow students. I very much dispute the idea that it is just there to teach the basics.

I have also taught in a state grammar and a state 6th form college and again dispute the above idea. My students have always gone well beyond the syllabus, gaining a fantastic education in my subject! If I were to accept a place in a private school I very much doubt I would teach differently.

Standards vary between schools. You are right to take a close interest in your child?s studies. Text books will always work best and there are a good number of age appropriate books for most subjects in the WH Smiths. For English Google creative writing magic money cards also. For maths there is no substitute for regular practice. A text book for each year is the norm and it will do no harm at home to not only keep up to speed with where the children are in class but also if possible try a little of the chapters to come.

Thanks olguis I'll have a look for that.

Be careful what you wish for OP! (only joking really)

We've always had textbooks here in Ireland so I'm well familiar with where in the syllabus the kids are at, attainment etc. They are provided we have to but them (my UK friends are appalled but it's normal to us). The bags get progressively heavier and my Ds (4th class aged 10) has to use one on wheels as he did his back in carrying his school bag.

His bags are beside me here now and contain 1 Eng reader, 1 Eng skills book, 1 Eng spelling book, 2 English novels, 1 Irish reader , 2 Irish workbooks , 1 Irish spelling book, 1 vocab book, 1 Irish CD rom, 2 Maths books 2 Maths workbooks, 1 tables book, Civics/Hist/Geog books/workbooks, French book, 2 dictionaries, 1 atlas, 1 Map workbook, 1 music book, 2 bulky folders of photocopied notes, various copies, journal and test papers. The rest are in the classroom.

The system here is quite structured, gradual and systematic, teachers could tell us what week and even day they would be covering topic x. Not everyone likes that of course but everything that needs to be covered is covered ime and the standard is pretty even across the state sector. Very few go private at primary and there can be considerable variation among private primaries so most go with state.

However in years to come our kids will be the one's with the back problems unless they introduce iPads everywhere (not too likely a few schools have though) !