year six child staying back a year

[frannyzooey]

Any advice anyone about what to fall back on if my son's head refuses to let him repeat year 6? He is being assessed by the ed psych next week and I plan to give the head a letter beforehand listing why I feel he should repeat. The school is aware he has emotional problems due to a previous bad relationship at home and he is only working to level 2/3 in all subjects. I am worried from what the head has said to me informally that he will not hold him back.
Can I appeal to anyone? Take it any further?
I want to be prepared so I don't stand there looking silly in the head's office! That would bring back memories!

I've had a number of experiences of children "kept back" a year but having to return to year eventually so effectively missing a whole year of teaching consequently being further behind that they were initially. Like maddiemostmerry I also have experience of children being educated out of year and moving to special secondary schools with the choice of missing a year and rejoining their peers (by age) or missing their final year and leaving without taking GCSE exams. These children were more than two years developmentally behind their peers.

ok thanks for that. I know the other boy who's staying back has been told by the local secondary that he can start year 7 when he does enter the school rather than joining his peers in year. I would not make my son repeat if I thought he was going to have to then go straight into year 8, that would mess him up more! I would only do it if he could repeat year 6 then go into year 7. he is a physically small and emotionally young boy and his friends are in year 5 so I don't think he's going to stick out. am I being naive?

The choice seems to be to either miss Y7 or Y11

I don't quite follow why will he miss Y11? you mean if he gets to 17 and wants to leave school he will miss it. But he will not be forced to leave education at 17 if he is in Y11 and wants to complete it, surely?

I feel that I'm about to be a bit blunt here, so apologies.

If your son is working at level 2 at the moment, then he is working about 3-4 years behind his chronological age. (expected level is 2b at the end of Year 2, so if he ends Year 6 on a 2a, he would be at the level expected part way through year 3.

Why do you expect to make up all this this ground - the progress expected for an average child over almost the whole of KS2 - by repeating a single year? It may be that you know a specific reason why your son would suddenly make vastly accelerated progress during that year. If not, and if it's an 'in hope' wish, then being realistic - why should he, in that 1 year and with the added 'I'm not good enough to go to secondary' dent to his self-confidence, suddenly make vastly faster progress?

So a likely scenario would then be that your demotivated son, already feeling 'different' because he has been kept back, then still goes up to secondary school on well below expected levels and is placed in exactly the same sets (and perhaps with less support) than he would be if he went up with his proper cohort.

How is that a benefit?

If you do know a very clear reason why you son should definitely be able to make 4 years' progress in 1 if he repeats year 6, then it may be worth arguing for... but a child is unlikely to progress fast when they have just been told they can't progress with their peers....

(There may also be a funding implication - ie a child is funded for their years of statutory education - if your child receives 1 extra at this point, then what happens for his final year of schooling? Certainly worth ascertaining before you go down this route - though IMO it is the social and educational reasons for allowing him to progress that are far more important than the financial)

ok I appreciate what you're saying, my hope was that if he managed to get to level 3-ish by secondary school, say level 3b, he would be able to work in secondary school in the main stream of kids who are not in a learning support, or nurture group, or whatever you want to call it. He has been in a "special needs" group ever since reception, without ever being formally diagnosed with anything, and I think he has learnt that he is "stupid" and also to lean on TA's and me to help him learn. My aim, ever since the ed psych said his problem was an emotional one rather than a learning difficulty, has been that he at some point joins in with the average kids in his year. I would hope that by repeating a year he will get a bit more time to do that. Is that unrealistic?

What are his exact levels (reading, writing and maths) at this point, and how much have they progressed since the end of Year 2?

Extrapolate that rate of progress for a further year - where does he get to? So is your expectation realistic at the current rate of progress.

3b is still not 'average' - it is the expected level for the end of Year 4 - and your son's progress up to this point suggests that he might be making slower-than-usual progress as well. You need to be talking to the secondary school about how they would move him forward from where he arrives, rather than trying to 'pretend' that his starting level is different...

Say his end Year 6 levels just scrape him into the bottom of 'unsupported' kids BUT he has had an extra year to get there and may need longer to make each next step in his progress ... how has that benefitted him against just transferring him as normal, taking him as he is, and working with his new school to find the best way forward?

That is really interesting, I don't have his end of year 2 results to hand, I know that he didn't do ks1 sats and I think at that stage he was still on P stages. At end of year 4 he was 2b in numeracy and 2c in literacy, that was just after we separated from my husband, end of year 5 he was 2a in numeracy and 3c in literacy, he is now 3b in literacy but the head says he is getting up to level 4 in certain aspects of literacy, I think in comprehension he said. Numeracy he is stuck at level 2a still.
I still think that perhaps with him gradually growing in self esteem (he's on school parliament and has made his first best friend, etc) he will catch up a bit faster now. Perhaps if he is in a position where he's not always behind he will give him the incentive to try harder and not feel negative all the time about lessons? Honestly I am not fixated on his academic levels, I just want him to feel like he belongs and is as good as everyone else.
Sounds to me from what you say though it's a bit like those growth charts, the progress you make is a kind of curve that carries on as it starts?
thanks for your input ....

It sounds to me as if a new start in a new school with good support would be exactly what he needs at this point, as he can leave his 'old self' behind and start again. You should balance the positive aspect of a new place and a new start against the negative effects on self esteem of being 'kept back'.

It's not quite like the growth charts, in that children can and do make huge spurts (sometimes for really simple reasons, like a parent finally taking a child to the optician and finding the right glasses) or plateau for periods. But equally, a child may make exceptionally good progress 'for him' but still be well below average for their age and the making exceptionally good progress that should be celebrated. W (working towards level 1, often recorded in P scales) to 3b in literacy during KS2 is above average in terms of progress, even though the finishing point is below average IYSWIM.

Personally, i think that the 'check' in this great progress from not being allowed to go on to secondary would be much greater than any possible 'check' from progressing but with support.

see that's where I don't really agree with you because I don't think he wouldn't be leaving his old self behind and making a fresh start, he'd be taking along that self who needs learning support along with him to secondary school. I am worried that he will then need learning support the whole way through. And where does he end up then? Emptying rubbish bins?

whereas with an extra year he can just make that little bit of progress that might make him feel good about himself.

I respect your opinion though as a teacher, it is pretty amazing that he's made so much progress even though he still is behind, when he ended year 2 he could really barely read! I will mention to him when I next get a chance how far he's come with his literacy!

If he goes up to secondary with a 3b in literacy, I don't think he'll be given any extra support. He may not even be in the bottom set.

Why don't you ring the SENCO of the secondary school and find out?

All schools o things differently. Absolutely anything is possible, and only the new SENCO will be ble to tell you.

There is still 9 months between now and starting school.

That's a lot of time to make progress.

Does he read to you every day?

How is his reading?

Well that's encouraging. They did do mock sats and his paper scored 10/52, the head said he underperformed because of not being familiar with the format, but surely they would know roughly what to do five months beforehand. The main problem is his maths where he is like a rabbit in headlights when asked a question. Head says it's about self esteem, that you have to be quite assertvie to blurt out the answer to a maths question, and if you have poor self esteem you can't do that. Then there are all the other self esteem issues - not having friends, not joining clubs, worrying about things, etc. He does read on his own now every day (almost), 2 pages (or 3 pages if I push it) of Michael Morpugo. Honestly it's not the literacy I'm worried about, it's the math and him generally feeling rubbish about himself a lot of the time.
Perhaps when I've seen the ed psych I'll ask the senco what they would do for a boy at his levels.

Been thinking a bit more.

Rather than you lobbying for your son being kept down a year, I feel that what you need to be asking for is for mechanisms to ensure that he makes as much progress as he possibly can in the second half of Year 6.

The thing is, SOME schools - by no means all - react to the pressure of SATs and league tables by focusing a lot of effort on those children who are borderline )just below the 'magic' level 4b and Level 5 benchmarks. For Literacy, your son may benefit from this as with his rate of progress in Year 5 in particular they may think he is capable of reaching Level 4 and so puch him really hard.

However, for maths this may work against your son as they may have decided that he's 'too low' and so effort may not be put into him making maximum progress as he may not achieve one of the 'magic' benchmarks.

I think that the question that you should be asking the head is how they are intending to maximise his progress for the next term and a half, particularly in Maths, as he has shown through literacy that he is capable of making extremely good progress even within a single year. I would be expecting to hear information about 1 to 1 work, specific interventions etc and a target of 3b for the end opf the year with a very clear plan how to get there.

And I wonder whether in this case - and i think it's the first time I've ever advocated it - whether getting some 1 to 1 help outside school with a Maths tutor might give him more confidence? if not a 'live' tutor, have you checked out the various Maths sites online that can help him practise basic skills?

I think you are right about them giving up, because all the head said to me when I queried why he was making no progress was "keep practising times tables and number bonds", and if you have been hearing that for two years it gets a bit demotivating.
He also said there was no point in doing formal IQ testing as such with the ed psych as "we test all the time anyway" and anything an ed psych would recommend as a strategy "we already do". I did get the impression they don't know what to do with him and maths anymore.

What would you imagine the specific interventions would be for someone like him? It's hard to suggest these things when I don't know what they are!
He did have some maths tutoring through year 5 and the tutor (who was a very nice retired math teacher) said she had never had anyone quite like him because every week she felt she was starting from scratch!
Any point in paying for private testing by an ed psych? There's one round here who said he would do all the Wyatt tests and my mum has offered to pay.

Think very carefully about what you would hopeto achieve from a private Ed Psych assessment - a WIAT is an IQ test, how helpful would that be? - Not meaning to sound daft, and it may of course be that you want to establish the cognitive level of your DS to help you plan for him, but a set of numbers in itself is not always helpful. Any assessment worth its salt (or the considerable cost) should include a decent set of practical recommendations for what can be done to help your DS make progress.

In my LA there are a (very) few DC who do not transfer with their chronological year group, but it is rare and the LA do not like it. i would say that in all cases, the DC have Statements of SEN, and have been taught with a younger year group for some time, I have never known it happen for a child already working in Y6.

The protocol here would require the school/parents to request the child staying 'out of year' (because as I said, if they were already in Y6 it would simply never happen) an Ed Psych (LA, not private) would have to recommend it and ultimately the County SEN manager (bigwig in a suit, usually in a nice office and a long way from any school) would have to agree to it.

Sorry, I've gone on a bit there......

Agree with AS that it is very rare for children not be taught with with their chronological year group and those usually have very significant SEN.

We currently have 1 child being taught out of their age group. All specialists have agreed that this child would most appropriately be taught in a Special School due to his very significant physical and learning difficulties, but parents will not countenance it so the best solution we have found is for him to be with the year group below. If he is still with us when the time comes to transfer schools, it has already been agreed as part of his Statement that he will do so with his 'new' year group.

I would also agree that I think you need to be very clear what information you want from an assessment and what practical use it will be. It sounds from what you have said that your son's maths issues may include not being able to remember and recall maths facts (interventions to help would include using manipulatives such as tens and unit blocks to 'lay out' maths facts as concrete objects before gradually moving to a written 'working out' and finally to a memorisation) and if an assessment could identify the reason for that (eg. poor working memory) and give specific recommendations to help, it would be useful WHEREAS an IQ test would frankly be of no practical utility.

well my elderly dad had an IQ test done when he was 10 because he was struggling at school and was found to be ok, but he says he can still remember it happening and it worrying him. seventy years later!!! definitely not something you would want to do to a kid who has self esteem issues. I will only fall back on that if the LA ed psych is not helpful. Is it reasonable to push her to do some cognitive tests? Maybe ones particularly geared to math testing (to test as you say "working memory")?

What is it that the LA Ed Psych is going to look at? Maths testing would not necessarily look at working memory, it would look at attainment in Maths, which you ought to already know about from the school.

In terms of Ed Psych and other testing, I am (as a teacher but not a SENCo) the 'client' and not the 'expert' so I cannot advise you what tests might be useful. What I do when I refer a child to Learning Support for assessment (which then branches out into all kinds of things like SALT or Ed Psych etc etc depending on what is found) is I specify as tightly as possible what difficulties a child has. So I say 'Can work out answers to maths problems using manipulatives but finds it extremely hard to remember maths facts. Also finds spelling rules and phonic patterns hard to recall even after a long period of daily 1 to 1 phonics intervention'. or 'has great ideas verbally but loses track of words when writing them down. Also turns head to look at a word when reading or writing from the beginning to the end of a word.' From this type of information (I usually write upwards of half a side of A4 paper + have a 20-30 minute discussion including looking through books etc) and from a discussion with parents, the LST person decides which of their battery of tests is most appropriate for this child, assesses the child and comes back with specific recommendations, remedial actions or exercises, and recommended further referrals.

So I cannot tell you what tests any person assessing your son should do - all that i am saying is that you should ensure that any assessment is as targeted as possible by ensuring that you, the teacher, head, SENCo and anyone else involved with your child writes as specific a brief as possible to ensure that the tests assess not 'current academic attainment' (because you know that) but the nature of any specific barriers to leaning AND anything that can and should be done to reduce them.

AS, what prompted the referral to the ed psych was the fact that son was seen aged 8 (and was "diagnosed" with developmental delay because of a poor family situation) and two years later he is still struggling, mainly with maths, and is stuck at level 2A. So school and I felt he needed a review, mainly to find out what his maths problem is. For me, the solution is he stays down a year and I want to check that out with the ed psych - for the school I suppose, to see what strategies they can use to help him.

I know that the head (who teaches him maths) did some testing with him last week after the ed psych appointment was set up, so I suppose he wants to get things sorted.

Twithkids, I will try to make a really clear list of behavioural stuff (like anxieties) and specific examples of things he struggles with during homework rather than just moaning.

BTW, we had another child (end Year 3, working at the level expected of a child at the beginning of Reception... just beginning to fulfuil a few of the requirements of the EYFS...) who we as a school, and the parents, wanted to keep down a year - but the Ed Psych refused, saying that the situation was not sufficiently extreme to justify it. So do not expect the Ed Psych to support keeping a child down, especially if the school is against it - they may well argue the other way.

well thanks yes I am prepared for a fight. my son had music therapy last year and a referral to camhs who did a home visit and both camhs and the music therapist felt he was gradually improving in terms of self esteem. after the course of music therapy he started guitar lessons which is lovely! it is possible those two would be prepared to support me i hope. i will respect what the ed psych says, if she feels repeating is not indicated and has some good strategies maybe we will go with that instead. what I don't like is when you approach people (such as the head and his class teacher) about him staying down and they say, "well the LA won't like it" - which makes me think that noone is doing what they feel is right, just what they feel is dictated to them.

I have known of around five children to be kept back a year at the school where I work. Mostly, they were children who ended up going to special schools, however, we have had one who was kept back for 'behaviour/emotional/social difficulties' (BESD). Our Ed.Psych was completely supportive and the intention was that once the student completed their extra year with us, they would thereafter remain as a member of that year group all the way through their schooling. I know for a fact that when the child went to secondary school, they remained in the new year group.

That one extra year with us made an amazing difference to the child's ability to cope emotionally, although the academic levels had not progressed significantly. The emotional problems the child had, were also related to difficulties at home.

I would say, go for it. It can be done, though you will need the support of the school and the ED.Psych. It may be that your LEA does not generally go down this route, but that doesn't mean they cannot.

Good luck.