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Original poster

Competitively rank students by results say Gove

480 replies

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 14:17

Our esteemed Education Secretary has praised an academy in London which ranks pupils every term by their results in each subject.

Now I'm sure that parents of the kid who comes top will be pleased and proud, but what about the poor kids who are less academically able or who have SEN who are destined to by told term after term that they are rubbish? That their achievements, though they may be the product of hard work and great determination are of less value than a more academically able student who has slacked off and winged a good result on the test? How will that do anything but completely demotivate them and destroy their self-esteem?

What the fuck is he thinking?

If any of you have any respect for Gove as Education Minister, I sincerely hope that this changes your mind.

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claig · 27/11/2011 20:43

Yes, you are right, it is US based which is different.
But lots of US ideas eventually find their way over here.
I think that the big phonics drive of recent years emanated in the States and then grew in strength here, though I may be wrong on that.

tethersend · 27/11/2011 20:53

"Tethers, those measurable traits are how I grade effort, isn't that fairly standard?"

But those measurable traits do not constitute effort. They may not even be indicative of effort.

I interviewed a lot of students for my thesis and asked them how you could tell if someone was making an effort: answers ranged from "They are quiet", "They work hard", "They get good marks", "They understand the work" to "They are a good person", "They are kind" and "They sit still".

As teachers, we assume that students are aware of what we are grading them on with the cover-all term 'effort'. I suggest that actually, they don't; particularly as we are not measuring anything specific when we grade it. It is a ridiculous thing to pretend to measure- the worst thing is that it is so ingrained in professional practice in the UK that teachers believe that they are accurately and scientifically measuring something important.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/11/2011 20:56

I've not given an effort grade in 15 years of teaching. Is it really ingrained?

claig · 27/11/2011 20:57

'teachers believe that they are accurately and scientifically measuring something important.'

Good point. This is beginning to have ominous parallels with "climate change science". Wink

tethersend · 27/11/2011 20:57

Sorry, a couple more points:

"I don't think that girl expected to be graded highly for her effort in maths when she wasn't doing any work"

This should certainly be possible if she is being graded solely on effort- perhaps not likely, but possible.

"Obviously that differs from how much effort it takes her to get to school and be present in the classroom, but that is not what I am grading her on."

Why aren't you grading her on that? Who is? If you are grading her effort, then the inclusion of the amount of effort it takes to attend a lesson is vital.

tethersend · 27/11/2011 20:59

TFM, I think that's great- IME, schools not using effort grades are the exception rather than the rule. I really hope we will see a shift away from effort grades being used at all.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/11/2011 21:22

Clearly, I have always choden widely Grin

Interestingly, I have always gone for challenging schools - I wonder if there is a link.

Claig - you know there are really no parallels to be drawn between effort grades and climate change science, don't you Confused

claig · 27/11/2011 21:27

it seems to me that they are both examples of progressive voodoo number manipulation. But that is another topic entirely.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/11/2011 21:39

No idea what you mean of by progressive. I'm assuming it's a bad thing, although I'm not sure why.

In education, I should say, we live or die by on observer's judgement on "progress"...

claig · 27/11/2011 21:42

progressive is a political term and politics is what lies behind nearly all policy - be that education or global warming etc.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 21:48

"teachers believe that they are accurately and scientifically measuring something important."

No, I don't think they are. I am aware that it is subjective and that teachers differ in their ratings. I don't think that they think it is scientific either. But I think that many teachers would recognise my criteria of involvement, engagement, care taken etc as what they would use as markers for effort.

"Why aren't you grading her on that? "
Because I haven't been asked to grade her on effort in coming to school. I've been asked to grade her effort with her maths and I've told you my criteria for that.

It is interesting, however, that you think that the students don't see effort in the same way. I might ask my students what they see an effort grade as measuring. What age of student were you asking? Those responses seem to have come from primary school children?

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TheFallenMadonna · 27/11/2011 21:53

Hmm. Still no idea what it means though...

And yes - as a teacher yet again waiting to find out how my GCSE course (which was accredited after Easter for first teaching in September) will be changed again after all of one year - I am well aware that education is at the whim of politicians. So when Michael Gove is stuck for something to say on the Andrew Marr show and decides that, you know what, linear GCSES are the way to go, we get to sit in limbo for another couple of terms waiting to find out what that actually means.

Regressive - is that the opposite of progressive?

claig · 27/11/2011 21:54

'Regressive - is that the opposite of progressive'

certainly not. Common sensical would be more accurate.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/11/2011 21:58

Seriously - my working definition at the moment is "something claig doesn't approve of" and some mistaken tenuous link between effort grades and global warming.

What do you mean by progressive?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 21:58

Maths teachers know what linear GCSEs mean, it means dusting off the old schemes of work from 7 years ago. We can do with coursework, or without, Mr Gove. Two tiers of entry or three? Take your pick, we've done them all in the last 7 years. I suspect that politicians are really in the pay of textbook companies. New GCSE, new textbook, fat profit.

I remember starting teaching and the oldies telling me that education always goes in circles. I just didn't expect it to happen so quickly.

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TheFallenMadonna · 27/11/2011 22:02

Yes - we strongly suspect that in Science it means the old Double Award rather than Core and Additional. But we don't know. And as our GCSE has just changed this Spetember based on Core and Additional, and coursework has changed to controlled assessments and all the preparation that entails for us, if that model only applies to this one year group, then I will go crazy.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 22:15

Our new spec (with exciting functional maths element) started last September, so we might at least get two sittings out of it. The textbooks are terrible though, so I'll be glad to see the back of them.

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marzipananimal · 27/11/2011 22:23

I don't think it's easy for teachers to accurately judge effort, even over the course of a whole term. I was bright, quiet, polite and always did extremely well in tests and was always given A grades for effort. However I just have a very good memory and never bothered to revise for tests (too lazy), I'm also good at blagging in essays so can get good marks with little effort. In all my years at school only one teacher sussed out that I'm actually pretty lazy - and this despite small class sizes (private school).

I'm in favour of teachers being able to use rankings in certain ways with certain groups where they think it would be beneficial. I'm very lazy but also very competetive and I think rankings would have been the only thing that would have motivated me to work hard.
I definitely don't think they should be rolled out across the board. I imagine it would be soul destroying for so many.

NorfolkNChance · 27/11/2011 22:26

So so glad my subject is taught based on local agreed syllabi rather than what is handed down by central government. However we don't count in this EB so who cares what we get to eh Wink

TheFallenMadonna · 27/11/2011 22:29

RE?

Envy
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 22:36

"I was bright, quiet, polite and always did extremely well in tests"

Right, in maths: Did you put your hand up to answer questions? Did you ask questions? Rather than finishing the work and doing nothing, did you ask for more? If an extra challenging question was set, did you tackle it with relish? Rather than completing your homework to the bare minimum did you show all your working and work neatly and logically?

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/11/2011 22:39

If it is RE, how long do you think that will last what with your fancy new Bibles 'n' all?

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Fraidylady · 27/11/2011 22:47

I agree, there are very fat profits profits to be made.....publishing textbooks, £m to edexcel et al, running training courses for new syllabi (markers and teachers), etc, etc, etc.
How can you compare results year on year if the exams change so often? You must all be tearing your hair out.

As a matter of interest, are the exams ever manipulated to suit a political agenda (perhaps in changing the level of difficulty, the grade levels or the content)?

claig · 27/11/2011 22:48

noblegiraffe, I like the sound of these new elite maths schools. Is Osborne on the right track?

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8917875/Autumn-Statement-2011-Schools-that-specialise-in-maths-planned-by-Government.html

claig · 27/11/2011 22:59

'As a matter of interest, are the exams ever manipulated to suit a political agenda (perhaps in changing the level of difficulty, the grade levels or the content)?'

Lots of people have said that grade inflation was political.

As for content, apparently global warming has even appeared in an English GCSE

'With active encouragement from the Government, whole generations of school-children have now had the apocalyptic threat of climate change pushed down their throats ? not just in science classes, but in almost any subject you can think of (questions on the need to fight global warming have even cropped up in English GCSE papers).'

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2039797/Global-warming-twisting-childrens-minds.html