State versus independent

[Debs682]

As the state schools were not great in this area (Hove, Sussex), we decided to put our children (now 9 & 3) through the private system, up to secondary school, 11/12 plus. We did intend to move to a good secondary school catchment area once my eldest neared 11. However, it transpires now that we are unable to move and therefore, need to look at state schools around here. First of all, has anyone any advice or experience in going from private to state run education, followed/following the path that we decided to take? Would just be nice to have some general chats etc, as I am concerned re the transition from private to state schooling in terms of adjustment for my son.

Sml
Its not really practical for most of us to move abroad to get a decent education for our kids is it? Since grammar schools are few and far between, it really doesn't leave much choice but to struggle for a private school. I agree with Cam, its nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with wanting your children to grow up in an atmosphere of learning, with SUFFICIENT books, equipment and good teachers.

I was lucky I was in the catchment area of a grammar school, and a grammar has everything I've mentioned plus its FREE! To all those protestors in the 1970s and 1980s who wanted rid of grammars, the best aspect of the state system, look where we are now. Total degeneration. Getting rid of the best as some kind of socialist/equality statement has not helped one bit. You know who you are - apologise now!!!!

Until state schools are as good as grammar and private schools you cannot be surprised that that's the route we parents have to go for a decent education.

Problem is its a vicious circle, the more capable parents & their kids that leave the state system, the more the state system is left with the bottom layer of parents/kids and the less pressure they get from the infuential middle classes to get better. What a mess!

..end of rant...

Sml

BTW I've just reread your message and you said ". Is there any justification for choosing a private school apart from academic excellence or pure snobbery?"

What on earth is wrong with wanting a school to provide academic excellence???? There's a plot gone missing somewhere I think!

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robinw - what do you mean by a specialist state secondary?

RobinW, how would you get your child to the grammar school? Because grammars cover whole counties, they often entail a big commute. I was lucky being in London I could use buses, but if you would have to take dd there yourself, would be an awful pressure. Wouldn't worry about making new friends though, that's the easy bit I think!

Lil,
I never said it was wrong to choose a private school for its academic excellence! That is a valid reason though it may not be everyone's choice. My school suited me, but I know that by the sixth form, there were many people who felt that if they weren't applying to Oxford or Cambridge they were second class citizens. One girl in particular was very annoyed because the course she wanted to do wasn't even offered at either of these two universities!

Moving abroad isn't practical for most of us unless we want it to happen, in which case it is possible. Moving between two states in the European Union isn't the same as moving to a foreign country now is it??!
With regard to your point about sufficient books, I remember sharing books not once but many times at my school because there weren't enough to go round, and most of our text books were around 20 years old! I think it's a bit insulting to teachers to suggest that you only get good teachers in the private sector. The teachers at my state primary were fantastic, as were most of the teachers at my secondary school.

The point about an atmosphere of learning is a good one, but even this argument has its weaknesses - very academic schools tend not to teach the children the skills they need to learn on their own, a point which was made on the home education board as well. People I met at university who had had to fight to study, or study on their own, were far better prepared for uni and for life.

Grammar schools may look like the best part of the state system, but remember that you can't have grammars without having secondary moderns as well. I understand people who say why can't we have a system like the French, for example, where everybody except a few very rich kids, goes to state schools, and their schools are brilliant compared to our state sector.

I'm putting these sort of questions to see what other people think, or have decided, because I'm really undecided myself. We've considered lots of options, but don't have to make a decision for a few years yet. Many people like my parents made huge sacrifices in the 70s to take their children out of the state sector, and with hindsight, I question whether that was ever necessary or in the children's best interests. There was a variety of other options that would have led to university success, eg moving closer to grammar schools, sending children to state school and having extra tuition at home, or home education! Maybe all that money would have been better spent on other things.

I am really interested to hear what choices others have made/are intending to make.

I can't believe the tone this thread has taken. No wonder teachers feel so undervalued. State schools often do a wonderful job in very difficult circumstances. However I have found that a childs "achievements" are often as much about what the parents put in (beyond money) as what the school puts in. As for the assumption that Grammer schools are always better than comprehensives, an anachronism perhaps?

Winnie, why is that last statement an anachronism?
I agree Sml that we should have the French system where all state schools are good. But the fact is they arenot, and so getting rid of something good like grammars WITHOUT replacing them with decent state schools is a bit of a 'dog in a manger' situation (i.e. if my kids can't get in why should yours!). maybe if more teachers got to work in agrammar and absorb their ethos of disciplin and encouragement, it might be brought over to the comprehensives.

I am not saying teachers in comps. are bad - i am saying that any decent teacher having to put up the lack of financial support and pressures from the ever changing curriculum, are not going to be at their best, with apathy soon setting in.

private schools have more choice of activities outside academia, they have a big emphasis on sport, and do not expect their pupils to all get to oxbridge, so much as have a sense of disciplin and confidence in themselves. Don't you find its really obvious to spot a privately educated person. They seem to have an innate confidence, despite(?) their ability.

Sml, our postings must have crossed! However, I absolutely agree with all that you had to say.

Hi Lil, to answer your question, I personally think that to have a system where Grammar schools are assummed to be better, is rather naive. Furthermore, what should one do if a child does not reach the Grammar criteria? In my humble opinion the system itself is prone to set up an illusion of Grammar = better and therefore those children who don't get into Grammar schools = failures. In a society where most children go through the comprehensive system what are we saying about average education?

My daughter attends a marvellous state primary (which I had to fight to get her into - I admit) and she will be attending a secondary school which we have chosen because of its reputation with regards to the arts (which are my daughters particular strengths). There are good state schools out there.

Furthermore, when I went to secondary school (in the 80's) the standards were terribly poor compared to today. On reflection it seems that I spent more time away from school due to striking teachers than time in school!

Could someone please tell me what the difference is between Grammar, comprehensive and State schools?. We have in Scotland, High Schools or Academy, in our area are have both and they are both the same teaching but with different names. Of course our teaching regime may be different than England as we are goverened by the Scottish Executive.

I attended High School as did the majority of our friends, but don't you think that those who have been educated "privately" can sometimes be pompous little horrors, who think that because they had a private education that they have done better than the rest of us who managed to attain our various qualifications by going through High School etc. On that note I do have friends who were educated privately, and they are not like that infact one them is now our vet!, it is not the case in all I know but there are the select few who think that they are better than everyone else.

I find this discussion extraordinary. Most people go to state schools, and yet the impression from this discussion is that they are all beyond the pale - that no decent parent would ever consider them. I'd like to say a word in praise of state education!

I went to state schools, as did my 3 siblings: we all sent our [total] 10 children to state schools. My sister teaches in a state infant school (and she is thinking about her children all the time, what they could do, what they would like, how to teach this concept - on holiday she is always on the lookout for teaching aids - last time it was tiny teddies to help in counting). We have friends who teach in state schools. We have all been heavily involved as classroom helpers, in the PTA, governors of primary and secondary schools. Our children are all doing brilliantly, multi-talented, musical, artistic, athletic, clever, funny, independent, tolerant, confident, sociable, active in their local communities - the grown up ones succesful in competitive fields. They are all fortunate enough to come from backgrounds where the parents are committed and have realistic expectations of the amount of work needed to succeed - but they have all been developed and encouraged and stretched by excellent teachers in local schools. They have all gone to the nearest school to wherever they happened to live - and we live scattered over England.

For Tigger

Primary state education in England and Wales is all comprehensive - all abiliites in the same school. I have never heard anyone object to this.

Secondary education in most counties/boroughs is also comprehensive - but these schools are actually CALLED comprehensives. A lot of people object to this - it seems odd to me. These schools either set (kids are grouped by ability for specific subjects, and taught in forms for other subjects) or stream (kids are grouped by ability in 1-2 subject, for all subjects.

Secondary education in some counties/boroughs is still based on taking an exam at 11 - the 11+ - in which a varying percentage of boys and girls were creamed off to go to a grammar school (so-called from the medieval schools which taught grammar, rhetoric, etc). All the rest went to something called a secondary modern, feeling very demoralized.

My family's experience of comprehensives has been nothing but positive. My daughter at 12 is doing work I did not do in a grammar school until 14.

Copper, have you seen Grange Hill ;-)

Grammar and private schools are a different world.

Winnie it is not naive to think grammar schools aren't better than comp. In terms of education provided in an atmosphrere of learning. They are. I went to both and I couldn't believe the way the teachers had to cajole their pupils to listen. We should learn from the kilts oops celts...

Tigger, an English friend of mine living in Aberdeen raves about the scottish system all the time. As much as she misses her family, she says she couldn't move back here while her child is in scottish education. The difference is too great!

Lucky her, lucky you, why does it work in scotland, what do you think the difference is?

Ahhhhh.
Where does this myth come from that comprehensive schools are rubbish. There are loads of excellent schools out there doing brilliant jobs. In this country we look after the bright kids well, the reasons we come out badly in tables comparing us to other countries is that we fail our mid to underachieving kids. We have what is known as a "very long tail" (think graphs).
The other problem, and the bain of my life, is the idea that 'good education' involves miserable kids sitting in rows being told stuff. Parents who want to see quiet class rooms and 4 hours homework a night. Education can be fun it's parents who don't want it to be.

Grammar schools, only 25% of kids go - you are all assuming that yours will be in that number. Testing at 11 is NO indicator of how clever a child is. My brother failed his 11+ and is now working on his Phd (despite no because of the school he went to).

To ensure you get your child into this Grammar school you are going to have to have them coached - not really a load of pressure to put on an 11 year old child.

In a comprehensive a child could be in top set maths but only middle set english, working at the right level in both subjects. That same child may have failed his 11+ (because his English was not brilliant) and therefore not be able to be pushed enough in maths in a secondary modern.

I have taught in a secondary modern, those of you who want Grammar schools ought to go and talk to those kids. "I really feel I let my whole family down" "My mum never said but I know she cried when I failed" "It's best we are not with the clever kids we would only hold them back." I could go on.

Ok nearing end of rant, well funded comprehensive schools work, scandinavia has an excellent education system - very little selection.

What works well in scotland is a comprehensive system that is well funded and supported by parents!!!

Snowy, I agree with most of what you've just said! But when we were children, the fact was that there were 2 comprehensives in our town, and I think in those days the catchment areas were strictly enforced. The one we would have gone to didn't have a sixth form and the O level results, or CSEs as they mainly were, were dreadful. If you persisted to A levels, you switched to the other school at 16, and when they got someone into university it was in the local paper. I don't think they ever got anyone into Oxford or Cambridge while I lived there. Given this, it's not surprising that my parents, and many others, opted to ferry their children 20 miles to private schools, from which they passed inevitably to good universities. I'm not saying their decision was necessarily right, just that they felt that the state system had failed them.

On the subject of homework, who does want it? I certainly don't. I hear that it's going to start when my children are 4 years old!! I don't see the need for any child to have homework at primary school age. That seems really paranoid, as well as giving single working mothers something else to feel guilty about ("I didn't manage 20 minutes reading with my child last night").

Sml you've really got me going now. Bloody parents thats who want homework! I once, after a class had been doing a test, didn't give homework, in my opinion it wasn't needed. Three parents phoned in demanding to know why no homeowrk had been set. I was told "just give them something", but in my opinion it was better for them to have rest "it doesn't matter the parents want it". So what do you do?, you make up silly tasks, you then have to mark.

Parents ask "how much H/W does the school give?" more is better. People wouldn't dream of sending children to schools where they only get 2 hours a night - they want more.

To quote a parent I had the misfortune to meet "I want Gemma to have more homework 'cos she only watches telly when she has none". What am I a childrens entertainer or a teacher?

Sml I can see your point about the 'bad' school but surely what's needed is to improve the bad school.

"Only" 2 hours homework a night!!!

Lil, in answer to Scottish Education system, there is a totally different attitude and way of teaching here in our area anyway, but in our area the Primary Schools are fairly small the largest being 340 pupils and ours only has 84, so the teachers have fewer pupils. My uncle is Head of Maths and a Guidance teacher and he is a good teacher and in his school they have set up a parent/teacher rota for helping those that are not managing as well with some subjects, these kids get after school help from the teachers and the parents come in as well to see how they can help their children.

On the subject of homework, our eldest gets homework every night and she is only in Primary 1 and I do think that this is a good things, reading some nights and Phonic Writing and sentences and sums other nights. I agree with what snowy has said, our schools round us Primary and secondary are well supported by the parents at all levels and have a good relationship with the teachers.

On a lighter note, after the incident with the escaped lamb this morning, went onto move cows and the bull, ok that was fine got chased by one of the cows and had to run for dear life, managed to outrun the bism!. Only to go and pick up son from Playgroup, walk round the back of the car, fall over twist my ankle gash the right knee, managed to drive home phone the Dragon Receptionist (mother) who got me to go the casualty department! and they're not sure if I've broken it or not, my day is going from bad to bloody worse.

Debs682, I was moved from an Independent School to a State one when I was in my last year of Junior School (we moved areas, and couldn't find a prep school that would take me just for 1 year), I have to say it was an awful experience. The state school that I went to had open plan class rooms, didn't seem to do much work and was generally very different to what I was used to. It was a huge shock to my system, (but I obviously survived). I 'switched off' and just really coasted through the rest of my Junior and Senior education, the teachers didn't really challenge me as I wasn't a trouble maker, but they just kind of ignored me as I managed to get good results without really putting in very much effort. Incidentally, the same thing happened to a friend of mine in your area, their son was at Brighton College, and had to move to a State senior, he was so unhappy that they have sent him to Lewes Grammar. Sorry to be negative.

I can't believe this has come up as a discussion point on mums net. It's something I've been really thinking about over the last few months. I went to an absolutely dreadful comprehensive school then (when we moved) to a church school. I loved my first school but it really was terrible....no-one from my year left with more than 4 o'levels (and they were the very bright ones.) The 2nd school was very,very successful. Kids no brighter but very very good results. (actually better than local independent.) I ended up with 9 o's, 3 A's, degree and post grad. Would never have happened if I'd stayed at 1st school.
So anyway...I think there is a huge huge gap between good state schools and very very crap state schools.
So what do I do now. I have always been dedicated to the state system and could never imagine myself spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on private education. BUT the comprehensives near us are really awful. The only grammar school within 20 miles is fantastic but massively overscribed.
There's a lovely state primary near by so I'm not worried about that.
I think it'll be about £100,000 to send both boys to independent senior school.
What happened to my argument that a bright kid will do well wherever they go and it's more important to have a variety of experiences.
Sorry this message seems to have gone on forever but it's just so important to get it right.

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My children have been/are going through the Scottish system. Scotland is fully comprehensive, although some schools are called 'Grammar' rather than High School or Academy.

Our local Academy is excellent, always one of the top five in Scotland. Almost everyone here sends their child to it, from the binman to our local Scottish MP. The few people who send their children 20 miles to a private school are looked upon in astonishment - why are they paying for what is available for free??

I would say it is definitly a standard that all schools should aspire to. One of our considerations when moving was education. Aberdeen city has some appalling schools so we located out of town, where incidentally, the weather is better, too!!!!

Our youngest begins school this year and will be in our village school of around 30 pupils; her class is projected to have 10 children. A new teacher has recently started and she said she is astonished at the resources she has. She reckons she's almost drowning in supplies of just about everything and hardly knows where to put it all. Yet the LEA is by no means the most generous in Scotland (2nd from bottom, I think) but there is a massive input from parents.

BTW, I don't agree with homework for primary school pupils. It's a relativley new phenomenon. My feelings are that if a young child needs to work at home in addition to five or six hours at school each day there is something wrong with the system. Children should be able to have a childhood for as long as possible, IMHO. :-)

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Bloss, it can be a fantastic opportunity - provided you don't mind either relocating the whole family to the cathedral town in question, or sending off your little son at the age of seven to weekly board.
Our church has a good tradition of music and currently has one child singing at Southwark and two at the cathedral school at St Pauls. Southwark has no cathedral school but close links with a number of schools in Southwark/Lewisham/Lambeth: the other two little fellows don't see their parents Monday-Friday. All the families have to organise their lives round cathedral activities, which can be nightmarish if you have other children not at the cathedral, or if, Heaven help us! mummy works outside the home.
Don't get me wrong, they also offer a first-rate education, good pastoral care on the whole, and the chance to tour the world and learn to make wonderful music. All the boys involved love it and their parents are so proud of them: the Southwark chorister shook Nelson Mandela's hand last week!
But they demand a high commitment of the whole family in return, higher than either an "ordinary" state or private school. And, although more cathedrals are offering girls' choirs, the educational opportunities attached to these are not yet as good (fewer endowed scholarships etc).