State versus independent

[Debs682]

As the state schools were not great in this area (Hove, Sussex), we decided to put our children (now 9 & 3) through the private system, up to secondary school, 11/12 plus. We did intend to move to a good secondary school catchment area once my eldest neared 11. However, it transpires now that we are unable to move and therefore, need to look at state schools around here. First of all, has anyone any advice or experience in going from private to state run education, followed/following the path that we decided to take? Would just be nice to have some general chats etc, as I am concerned re the transition from private to state schooling in terms of adjustment for my son.

Message withdrawn

Bloss, I guess it depends on where you live/where the cathedral is. I think you can be a day pupil if your family are able to be close by. Not easy for St Pauls unless you earn ££££ and can live in the Barbican.
I know from friends with older kids that you end up being a taxi service anyway, but the downside of cathedral school life is that the children there are at their busiest when most other families go away/spend time together: Christmas and Easter. The schools generally do a good job of treats and fun for the choristers but I think the rest of the families miss their boys and girls...
It's an interesting idea to raise it though because you are right to say that the cathedrals are having immense problems recruiting children with the right interest and disposition, not to mention latent talent (though I believe all children can sing given a chance). And there's no doubt you get to do some interesting things. I know a couple of hulking teenage former choristers and grown-up ones too and every single one of them loved the experience and got an excellent education to boot. So much so that the grown-ups are putting their own children forward.

There are grim comprehensive schools and there are dreadful, waste of money private schools. Sadly, in this country it is geographical luck as to whether you will be near a great or good comp or not.
Have a look at the Ofsted website (www.ofsted.gov.uk) and you will see the huge disparity between the best state schools and some of the middling to poor private schools.
I can't remember who posted "Have you seen Grange Hill" but all I can say in response is "Have you seen St Trinians"? Grange Hill is fiction!

Just to add my penny's worth to this discussion:

I had a mongrel state education. Failed my 11+. Went to bog standard girls sec mod. Passed my 13+. Went to boring,traditional girls grammar. In my home city, the comprehensive system was being phased in so I had to do my A levels at a newly created sixth form college. This college, by the way, is now about top of the state league tables. Before its sixth form transformation it was the best boys grammar school for miles around - and did the masters and boys know it!

Me, one of 30 sixth form girls amongst an ocean of big and little boys. Not as much fun as it sounds! The black-gowned masters were leaving in droves in protest at the comprehensive system and for having their male bastion of academic excellence diluted by girls.The remaining masters mostly ignored us.

Every time I got a school upgrade, my confidence, never 100% before, got severly undermined. The 'they're going to find me out and send me back' scenario.Yet my marks were fine. I had no pushy parent to add to my grief. I remember my mother, seeing me crying over my maths homework, begging me to stop and have a teacake while she wrote a sick note for me. She wanted me to leave school asap and train to be a hairdresser or nice lady newsreader.

As a sixth former I used to go for days without talking to a soul at school - I was so in awe of the precocious talent and percieved breadth of knowledge of my male classmates. Sad or what!

Yet I enjoyed my lessons and was totally inspired by some of my teachers - and they eventually got round to noticing they had female pupils in the class.

Anyway what I would like to add to the debate is: The best yet worst apsect of my ugrades was the increasng assumption by the school that as its pupil, I would do well. It knocked my confidence. And yet. I really liked the fact that I was sharing my sixth form classroom with a dozen or so Oxbridge candidates, not to mention the large remainder heading for other universities. Left to my mother and the secondary modern I would have left school at 16, with some CSEs. As it was I got to university and thoroughly enjoyed myself. So I really hope my son goes to a state secondary school with many ex pupils who go to university. I want him to have high expectations. I am already worried about his choice of local state secondary schools. When I look at them seriously, where their sixth form pupils end up is one of the first questions I shall ask. Having said this, I know far more 18 year olds end up in some form of further education and far more students take degrees, so I will bear this in mind too.

Anyway the second thing I learned from my school days about eduction was this:It was how little my classmates at sec mod and grammar varied. I never considered myself the most able at sec mod. Other girls got better marks that me. It is still a mystery to me why I was put in for the 13+, apart form the fact I was bullied a bit and was a quiet swot. I guess the teachers thought I looked the part and took pity on me! To me, the real differnce between the schools was in expectation, not pupil ability. The clever girls at sec mod went on to take 5 CSEs. The clever girls at the grammer took 9 GCEs and went on to do A levels.
I was truly amazed at how stupid some of the grammar school girls were, compared to the classmates I had left.

If only the two girls schools had been amalgamated and we had all, en mass stormed the snooty boys grammar and shown those excellent,but ivory tower teachers there that we had brains, too!

Paula1, thanks for your message. Why was your friend's son unhappy? Was it the children, different teaching?? I have no choice with my son, but my daughter will start school soon, and I do have the choice to send her private to the age of 11 ish, then state school, or just directly through the state system. Your input, thanks!

Debs682, I think my friends son was unhappy because he was a bit 'different' to the other children in the school, maybe because he'd been at an all boys school where the discipline was different, smaller class sizes, more attention... he was also very clever which made him 'stand out' from the group. He decided he wanted to be part of the group and started being disruptive and not really trying with his work, just to get peer approval. The teachers knew what he was doing, and that he was not really malicious, but since he moved to the new school he has been much happier and back to himself. I think the reason that I found it hard when I moved schools at 10 is because I'd been at an all girls school with small classes, and I'd been used to 'working' and doing some homework (not loads), when I moved to the state school my mum said I used to frequently come home and say 'they never do any work'. Having said all of that, going to the prep school until 10 really set me up for learning, but the state school 'switched me off', I got good passes in 11 O levels without really trying, and was desperate to leave school at 16 and get a job. Thankfully, I am working in an Investment Bank and have been since I left school so it didn't harm me. Another thing to remember is that I'm 32 now, and the differences may not be so great, lots of the Independent schools tend to be mixed now, and the State schools have got systems where children who are bright do get stretched more. Having said all of that I will be sending my child(ren?) to Independent school until 18. It is a very personal choice, and who knows if it will be better or worse in the long run? The school that we have chosen for our son seems really happy, they do loads of sports and other activities as well as having good academic achievement. I read an article in the Mail the other day that really annoyed me about how 'middle class mummies' had a DUTY to keep their children in the State sector to ensure that there was a balance of children and parents in the schools. Personal Choice. I'll probably get shot down in flames.

Paula, why haven't the upper class mummies got a duty to keep their kids in state schools? The Mail does love to keep us aspiring classes down where we belong, don't they?

Yeah, exactly.

My daughter (5) goes to a church primary, but i want to take her out of there. I put her there because the catchment primary doesn't have a nursery and this one does. I don't like what they're teaching her about death and spirits(!) and all the parents are incredibly snobbish. Only one parent ever speaks to me. But my daughter doesn't want to go. She feels happy and secure there. I don't force her to move because our local state primary has 3 classes per year group in semi- open-plan conditions, and I think she'd just switch off. What's really annoying about it, is around 2 of the classes in each year are not from the catchment area. They chose that school because it has higher academic results than their local primary. But in over- filling it, they've ruined it, and their local primary schools now have classes of 10 kids per year.

I had a big debate with a good friend about this... we both attended the local comp and along with our peer group we ended up going on to uni. My friend feels that despite doing quite well he would've done better in a private school. He gained a secong class B Sc and also got an M Sc. However he isn't happy that he acheived what he should've throughout and blames our comp. At what point do people realise that its down to them to be master of their own destiny?!

I think the point is once you have graduated nobody ever ask for you A Level grades again and once you have 5 years experience the class of deegree is rarely mentioned but it's getting to that point.
My husband went to grammar school and his depth of knowledge about absolutely everything is broader than mine, (I went to a comp) we both have degree's so both ended up in the same place but he's journey was rather more colourful and interesting than mine.

And i have made loads of grammer and spelling mistakes in that last message to further prove my point, honest

"I think the point is once you have graduated nobody ever ask for you A Level grades again and once you have 5 years experience the class of deegree is rarely mentioned but it's getting to that point."

Actually I think this is no longer true these days due to the fact that you can now get a degree even if you have no A levels or not very good ones. Because of this I expect employers these days do look at A levels and where you studied.

I went to a comp and got a third in my degree. However, my A'levels were good so I would never blaim the school just the amount of excess alcohol I drank and my interest in men and not going to lectures. Personally I would never blaim the school for what degree you get at university. In fact I have heard some research to say that comp kids actually do really well at university. Certainly the one that got a first on my course was a comp girl so I believe your friend ought to just look to the future. In careers it is personality really that gets you further and not the grades that you got.

I strongly believe in the value of a state education for all involved. Socially it is invaluable for all to have some experience of people from different classes, backgrounds etc... For children from less privileged backgrounds it is a chance to rub shoulders with kids who because of their parents have higher expectations of their life chances. And for kids like me, whose parents were well off and highly educated and motivated a chance to learn that the size of my parents BMW did not make me worth more than the kids who lived on the council estate. I am not quite sure where people think these lessons will be learnt other than in our schools? Or maybe you don't think that is an important lesson.

I did ok at state school and certainly would have got more o levels if I had gone private, however the A levels and Degree I achieved were certainly my own work.

There are so many other factors involved in academic success, parental support, expectations, motivation that have nothing to do with the school that you went to. If our dream is for our children to be happy why do we think that this will be achieved by academic success and the pursuit of monetary gain?

I would personally hate my children to have the "confidence" that privately educated children have, I think of it more as arrogance. They always seem to hunt and live in packs with others of their ilk, very divorced from us commoners...

I don't think being bullied is an important lesson, I don't think being a classroom with a few unwilling or unable to learn is important either.
Plenty of children will do well in the state system but as it is very much a case of survival of the fitest it wasn't a chance i was willing to take.
Education within school should be a tiny part of learning and for my confident children it is the majority of it takes place at home but as we have to send them somewhere for 6 hours a day, for my sake as much as theirs then I want that environment to be a kind nurturing one and I don't see that in the state system. What I do see is teachers unwilling to help 4 year olds who've had accidents, bullies rights put before the victims feelings and the squeeky wheel getting the oil, the good kids are left to sink or swim. I personally know lots of very intelligent people who should have done better out of life than they did who went to state schools and equally as many rich but dim people who hold very responsible, well paid jobs who'd be emptying bins if it wasn't for the private school they attended.

Hi Angela

My personal experience of state schools both of attending them and with DS1 is nothing like you describe. Bullies rights are not put first as you describe. It is a very serious issue in schools. The only difference is that in private schools that bully is just thrown out to go to another school. In a state school they are worked with to make them better children, thereby helping other children who are often involved in the process and they gain also an understanding that people are not necessarily bad. Is that not better for society in general? In my son's school this was started in reception and now those children are no longer bullies. It got sorted straight away and I am so proud of the school for doing this. Otherwise those children would have carried on doing this and become bullies in the workplace of which I have met many, mostly public school backgrounds. It needs to be tackled when children are young and ineffective. The private school answer to just exclude them which happened to a son of a friend of mine will not help anyone. Yes the boy had problems but if we just keep passing on problems it does not help anyone. Once again, I am so proud of my ds's school for helping these kids become a valuable member of society. The change in these kids over one year has been remarkable.

he he, well as a living experiment in the British education system, I feel I ought to chip in. In my education, I went to

a small village state primary
a private prep school

a private all girls secondary
a bonkers international school
boarding school
girls grammar school
huge mixed comprehensive school

and no, I didn't get expelled from any of them (it's a long story).

And what do I conclude from all of this? That there are no rights and wrongs, and that it all depends on the individual child - and that the best schools I went to were the ones that looked out for the individual and gave them the space to grow and develop. And the worst offenders agains this were the private prep school and the girls grammar school, which probably isn't what you'd expect. The comprehensive school was probably only tolerable because I'd worked out what I wanted to do for myself, and got on with it (and wasn't concerned about fitting in, which I think can be a problem for academic children in the comprehensive system, particularly when you're 15 and want nothing more than to fit in). I did get bullied there though, which is the downside of meeting lots of different people...

Kaz33 you said, 'And for kids like me, whose parents were well off and highly educated and motivated a chance to learn that the size of my parents BMW did not make me worth more than the kids who lived on the council estate. I am not quite sure where people think these lessons will be learnt other than in our schools?' My kids will learn this lesson from me, her dad and from the other kids in her class whose parents work for a living (generally both parents which is not a lesson they would learn if they went to their local state school). I and my dp are teachers in the state system. We don't drive a BMW. In fact at 35 I've only just passed my driving test and saved my money to buy a Fiat Punto. The parents at the independent school my dds will go to are not rich or privileged. They include other teachers, nurses etc. I accept that my experience of independent school is up north where fees are much more reasonable than in London for example (and considerably less than the nursery fees I currently pay and where it is interesting to note that nobody complains that their kids will only be mixing with the elite blah blah blah). Frankly I would be much more concerned about the 'lessons' my dds would learn (and perhaps more importantly the lessons they wouldn't actually learn) at their local state comprehensive e.g. how to be singled out as 'weird' because they wanted to learn and both their parents worked for a living etc etc. I know all about these kinds of lessons and what they do for your self-esteem because I went to a local comp not too far from where I am currently living and my dp has tried and often failed (in spite of years of successful teaching experience in reasonably difficult schools in London) to do supply teaching in most of the local comps my dds would go to if we remained in the state system.

I am not saying for one minute that all state schools or bad or blaming the teachers (though I do blame the Govt for many of the problems in the state educations system) just that my local schools would not provide a good learning environment for my kids and OFSTED has confirmed this. If I had a good local state school my kids would go there but I'm not prepared to go through the hypocrisy that many middle class parents go through e.g. a new found faith or an increase in mortgage to live in a more desirable area. In fact, another place my dds will rub shoulders with people from all kinds of backgrounds and ethnicities is my street!

How do you know "that my local schools would not provide a good learning environment for my kids and OFSTED has confirmed this"?

OFSTED reports can be very dodgy, and too many are way out of date.

I know that because I've read all of the OFSTED reports and, as I've said, my dp has done supply teaching in all of the local comps. He is a brilliant teacher (obviously I'm biased but he has over 12 years experience with 4 as a Head of Department in some fairly tough schools in London) but could achieve very little teaching in these schools. He spent most of the time trying and often failing to manage behaviour. Many of the classes were used to a succession of supply teachers. He got very little support from Heads of Department or Senior Management (including, in one case a Headteacher) all of whom seemed to consider what he was experiencing to be normal. A couple of HoDs who were telling him what needed to be done said to him 'Don't expect them to actually do any work. If you can keep them reasonably quiet that's great'. In one case an entire class just walked out!! My dp was so demoralised he actually considered leaving teaching but bizarrely he's now incredibly happy at a school for kids with severe emotional and behavioural difficulties. Here the kinds of kids he was teaching alongside 29 others are taught in classes of 7 with a teacher and teaching assistant. It is accepted they have EBD and the teachers are allowed to be a bit flexible with the National Curriculum. Also, I'm a teacher. I've also taught in a couple of our local schools. I do know what I'm talking about. But I also know the teachers in these schools usually do a brilliant job with what they've got. And I know that there are many fantastic state schools where I'd be happy to send my kids. I think parents may feel a bit differently about private education if they lived in the middle of Salford for example as opposed to St Albans IYSWIM.

My ds's school asked for a voluntary monthly donation at the beginning of the year to cover mini buses and the pool etc so we give £30 and if ds asks for any thing and I don't want to buy it I say no I have the school fees this week

A quote from dd1's secondary school OfSTED reports

report from 1999

High School is an 11-16 mixed comprehensive school situated *. There are 765 pupils on roll, 387 boys and 378 girls, which
is about average for this type of school and less than at the time of the last inspection. The
school serves an area in which there are widely differing social and economic
circumstances, including some of the poorest districts both in the city and nationally. The
majority of pupils come from neighbourhoods in which there is considerable deprivation,
high unemployment, low take-up of higher education and a lower than average proportion
of professional and managerial occupations. The proportion of pupils eligible for free
school meals is above average. The majority of pupils enter the school with well below
average standards of attainment, about 30 per cent being more than two years behind
average pupils of the same age nationally. The proportion of pupils on the school’s register
of special educational need is well above both local and national averages although the
proportion with statements of special educational need is below average.

This is the report that I had to base my choice on, the school has since had one of the new style inspections, and has been given a notice to improve. I have spoken to staff at the school, and they are all of the opinion that the inspectors came into school seeking to prove a point. Their whole inspection was based on last year's (poor) gcse results. They weren't bothered that KS3 and KS4 results were improving.

Question - If I was making the choice now (instead of a year ago), would I send my daughter to this school?

Of course I would, even if I could afford to pay for private education.

MY point - If I lived in the middle of Salford it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the choice I made. I live in one of the more affluent areas of my city, there are 3 state primary schools, 2 state secondary schools and 2 private schools all within a mile of my house, so there is plenty of choice.