I wish I could get inside DS1's head - I can't make sense of it at all, and if I could then maybe I could help him?

[BaroqueAroundTheClock]

OK briefly, DS1 was a slow starter at school, but "clicked" with most stuff in YR1 and then really flew with it. Left infants at teh end of YR2 with 2a's and 3'c. His writing was the best. Had a rocky few years in Juniors, combination of rubbish teacher in YR3. him going totally off the rails, and stuff happening at home.

We are now (finally) at 10yrs old (YR5) back on the right path again. BUT I've noticed something with him.

Currently his writing level is 4c (that's current level - not what she anticipates he may be at the end of next school year). He's got a great imagination, and his teacher loves his writing as he's really starting to develop characters and plots. He reads well too, and when reading things out loud is really expressive, like he's really understanding what is happening in whatever text he's reading.

BUT - here's the thing - he doesn't! He just can't seem to grasp anything other than the totally obvious. He can't read between lines at all.

In his mind any character can only be one of a very limited range of emotions. Yet I know he has the vocabulary for more I've heard him using it.

take \link{http://www.dramatix.org/archive/Easter/csi_jerusalem.html\this for example} is a play we're doing at church for Good Friday that he's playing the part of the Guard and the Scribe. He's already learned most of his lines, and we've had 2 practices, and he says then really well.

BUT - I discovered other than the fact the he knew it was

CSI - so investigating and that it was "about Jesus" - he couldn't tell me any more. His "default" suggestion for how any character in any book/text is feeling is generally Happy, Sad, Angry, Scared (with the odd occasinaly other "basic" emotion" thrown in.

HOW can he write so imaginatively, and read so expressively without understanding what is going on????????????

sorry BBK - x posts with you there.

Yes I try t do that with him, had to stop doing it with him in YR1/2 for a bit as he was getting so frustrated with not knowing and no matter how calm I stayed he would work himself up into a total frenzy (didn't take long for him to do that, he has a short fuse, and once that switch goes it's straight into screaming, shouting and sobbing) . The infants very helpfully send home a list of "comprehension" questions to help us with reading for them in the infants - so I use those with him. He goes on the "offensive" so quickly though that it's hard to do it with any regularity with him.

I know it's not just "me" that he struggle swith answering the questions with (I know I could never do school work with my dad as we just didn't "click" with it would end in tears). At church, for exmaple, he goes to Sunday School every week. He loves it and looks forward to going, comes back into church near the end of the service happy. At the end of the service the Vicar always asks a few to go up and tell the adults what they've been doing and he'll g up. He'll give the basics "played a game" "read a bible story about Feeding the 5000", the vicar then asks then a little about it (with the sort of questions you've given) and it floors him.

God I feel like a fool reading back over my posts. If I read them from anyone else I'd suggest gettting them assessed/getting some outside help. But I've convinced myself so much that "it'll sort itself out once things settle down at home" or "it's his age".

I should be looking for help for him shouldn't I, even if it's not Aspergers or anything else and he is NT, there's so obviously an issue and I've failed him by not doing anything

I would push for some kind of assessment as he does sound borderline. Maybe it's just traits rather than full blown AS but if you know what the problems are and a bit of what's causing them you can help more IMO.

Diagnosis doesn't necessarily happen early, it can come at any age - even as an adult - and it's usually the cumulative effect of traits like you describe which makes someone just think one day that that's not normal and nor is that and maybe there's something which explains the behaviour as a whole. Many people with AS are very bright and develop coping strategies to work around it, or their lack of empathy makes them so completely unconcerned that a parent doesn't notice their child is struggling socially/isn't into the latest craze.

You haven't failed him at all! You're seeing the whole picture now, you're getting advice from people who are as objective as they can be and writing it down has helped crystallise things for you so you are considering getting help. You just said so yourself :)

But that's the thing Maryz - he hasn't been fine up to now, at least not at home, it's only now that DS3 is nearly school age, and DS2 is that bit older I can see that DS1 was....well, different. His YR3 and 4 school reports were awful and even though he was ok at infants, there were still issues, (though nthing like as great as the issues now, they've kind of grown over the years).

This thread isn't the first time anyone has mentioned Aspergers and not just recently either but I've brushed it off every time "no he's totally NT, just need to sort x,y,z issues out and he'll be fine".

I've had fleeting thoughts of wondering it myself over recent years as well, and even looked at the various websites with information on it, but told myself each time I was looking for a "reason" so as to take the blame away from me and my parenting skills. But now, I don't know,

Is that where I'd start? With his teacher, I've followed so many threads on MN about SN yet I feel totally at a loss what to do.

I only know that one of DS1's few friends he had at that school, was a child who had a dx of Aspergers. His parents moved him from the school because of a lack of support despite his dx .

Hadn't seen the Oasis website before, just looked at their information sheet on Aspergers, and so much of it "is" DS1.

"Typically, children with AS may appear to be coping
academically in primary school but have a high level
of anxiety and lack of friends. They are likely to be
exhibiting some disruptive behaviour, either at home,
or at school, or both. This behaviour may have been
deemed odd and noticed at home from an earlier age"

That bit especially near the end just struck such a huge chord. He is different from DS2 and 3, obviously personalities will be different (DS2 and 3 totally different characters at the age DS3 is now) - but you know, just the way they deal with things, they way they react to things, their questioning and understanding of the world.

Thank you btw everyone on this thread, especially MaryZ. I really appreaciate the input. exH doesn't see them that often (And when he is seeing them regularly he goes for the easy option with everyone - do't get me wrong theyre fed, watered, and entertained - the latter generally with Xbox, PS2 and computer - oh yes he has all 3 so they all can be occupied at the same time) but as at most it's once a fortnight he's lax on rules , and we don't "co-parent" so it's all down to me really, That said exH has mentioned he'd had some of the behaiour from DS1 that I experience on a much more reglarly basis, but he just puts it down to bad behaviour, and as he has no idea how he's getting on at school is totally obvlious to any of it.

no a diagnosis online would be rather wrong .

I'll try and talk to his teacher, she's a NQt (but has impressed me so far just on picking up on social skills issues and a few other things - actually the best teacher, imo, in terms of looking at him at identifying issues he's had a Juniors) - so not sure how "up" she'll be on assessment thing.

I already know which Secondary I want to send him too, it's an outstanding school (in all areas) where as the 3 others are all pretty poor (and I have a good chance of him getting him in there as it's a faith school and I have ticked all the right boxes for years ).

I think actually exH would be "on board" with any assessment. He used to be very much a doubter in anything that you couldn't "see" (SN, MH etc), until he was really ill with MH issues a while back, and he's certainly changed his tune a lot since then.

I guess at least if I push for assessment and they come back and tell me he's 100% NT and is just a pita its all just normal behavioural, education stuff I'll know exactly where I stand.

Ok, just skim read the thread. But def sounds like he could have Aspergers or something related.

It's very very easy for no-one to notice and him not get diagnosed. My DS got a dx of Aspergers at 9 - and prev I had no idea there were SN problems. (Now however that I know what to look for I see lots of problems...)

I thought he was being picked on at school, his teachers were rubbish, etc etc. But none of it added up to a problem to me. Also what I was seeing at home was nothing like his school behaviour.

What you are describing are all really classic Aspegers symptoms. It's certainly not going to hurt to ask your GP to refer him to a child dev paed for an assessment for Aspergers.

A dx of Aspergers won't help you a lot - but it will allow you to research more things and put your mind at rest and explain a bit what is going on in his head.
Nor will a dx be quick. Figure at least a year.....

But without a dx it's very hard to even know what to research....

The average age for AS dx is 11 -DS got his dx at age 9 as well.

Assessment/diagnosis can be quite a long process (was a year for us) so you might find it helpful to read around the subject now. Tony Attwood's book is a very good introduction and the NAS website has a lot of useful information.

Even if he ends up assessed as borderline/below the threshold, it will probably still be useful for you to know strategies which are typically used with those on the spectrum. Most of them are pretty good parenting/learning techniques to use with NT children as well, so it won't do any harm to use them whatever the result of the assessment.

Sorry, Baroque. I thought it was the play that had rung the alarm bells in your head, but clearly you have been worrying about this for a while.

To the best of my knowledge level 4 is the average level of achievement for an 11 year old (end of Y6). If he is already being assessed at level 4a then he is not necessarily underachieving. I can't comment on the Maths but I taught secondary English for many years and was also a parent-helper listening to readers when my DD was in primary school.
I frequently came across boys who could read aloud perfectly well, with all the right rhythms and cadences, but with not the slightest idea of what they were reading! I'm afraid it was particularly boys who did this. It's as though reading aloud is a completely separate skill for them, and has no connection with reading silently and taking in the words on the page. They went on to do very well in their studies, by the way.

Has he done any written comprehensions where he's had to find answers in a text without guidance?

You know him best and you think there is reason to worry so I suggest you talk to his teacher and see if he ought to be assessed.

No the play was just another thing that triggered wondering in my head, - it's only his writing which he's 4c (not a), everything else is predicted to be 3b ish. Maths currently 3c.

Yes he's done written comprehension, they get a lot of that to do, and he just can't do it unless it's starting him in the face.

hi Baroque, we're in a similar place having recently got the ball rolling with regard to assessment for ds1 (eldest of 3 boys too!) although he is only 6.

You can get a referral through your GP, although IME they prefer it to go through the school, and this may be helpful anyway because you then have the teacher to back up what you are saying.
So i'd make an appointment to talk to her and ask for a referral, and to also get the school SENCO involved if they aren't already.

Hope you get some answers, it's a long and arduous road to travel!

hi TIY, thanks for that.

Thankfully his teacher when I spoke to him seemed quite "in tune" with some of the issues, and a lot of what she said echoed what I've experienced at home. (which was rather amazing as his last 2 teachers I often left wondering if we were discussing the same child!). Real specifics, rather than generalisatins that his past 2 teachers have given.

I think having spoken to you lot, thought about it an awful lot today (to the detriment of my house ) and discussed with my best friend (who runs Sunday school once a month and also sees my boys a lot at my house and hers) who also agreed that I'm not imagining some of this stuff that I will arrange to go and speak to his teacher and see if we can get the ball rolling.

As sugarcandy says even if he's borderline/below the threshold I may get some idea of how to help him. As I've tried everything else with him that I can think of, and of ideas that I've been given on MN over the last 6yrs in relatinship to his behaviour.

exactly, that's the best way of looking at it.
in my mind ds1 has, at the very least, a lot of ASD-traits.
My ideal outcome is that we can all (us and the school) help him overcome and problems he has and cope with social situations and ultimately just be happy.
and I am hopeful that even if he doesn't end up with a diagnosis we will still come out of it with ways of helping him iyswim?

My DS (7) was diagnosed last week. I had my suspicions (I'm a psychology teacher) and went to the GP last year who referred us to the Child Development Centre at the hospital. They took it from there.

A lot of what you have said would suggest Aspergers.

Could it be semantic pragmatic '
syndrome'