I wish I could get inside DS1's head - I can't make sense of it at all, and if I could then maybe I could help him?

[BaroqueAroundTheClock]

OK briefly, DS1 was a slow starter at school, but "clicked" with most stuff in YR1 and then really flew with it. Left infants at teh end of YR2 with 2a's and 3'c. His writing was the best. Had a rocky few years in Juniors, combination of rubbish teacher in YR3. him going totally off the rails, and stuff happening at home.

We are now (finally) at 10yrs old (YR5) back on the right path again. BUT I've noticed something with him.

Currently his writing level is 4c (that's current level - not what she anticipates he may be at the end of next school year). He's got a great imagination, and his teacher loves his writing as he's really starting to develop characters and plots. He reads well too, and when reading things out loud is really expressive, like he's really understanding what is happening in whatever text he's reading.

BUT - here's the thing - he doesn't! He just can't seem to grasp anything other than the totally obvious. He can't read between lines at all.

In his mind any character can only be one of a very limited range of emotions. Yet I know he has the vocabulary for more I've heard him using it.

take \link{http://www.dramatix.org/archive/Easter/csi_jerusalem.html\this for example} is a play we're doing at church for Good Friday that he's playing the part of the Guard and the Scribe. He's already learned most of his lines, and we've had 2 practices, and he says then really well.

BUT - I discovered other than the fact the he knew it was

CSI - so investigating and that it was "about Jesus" - he couldn't tell me any more. His "default" suggestion for how any character in any book/text is feeling is generally Happy, Sad, Angry, Scared (with the odd occasinaly other "basic" emotion" thrown in.

HOW can he write so imaginatively, and read so expressively without understanding what is going on????????????

he is male.
:o

tropical - I wish I could say that - but I have 3 DS's........1 other at school (YR2) and he "gets" stuff. Even DS3 (3 startings Reception in September) seems to "get" stuff more than DS1 at times.

The other day I said to DS1

"I don't like it when you're sneaking around behind my back"

"BUT MUM< I haven't been behind your back, how can I if you're sat on the sofa when I've done X"?

(DS2 then rather unhelpfully then snigger and told him that's not what I meant and explained it to him in condescending tones (and while DS2 is a whizz at maths he's pretty average with his literacy).

It's holding him back so much, even his teacher at recent parents evening said that his lack of understanding (basically of anything that isn't right in front of his nose) and inability to think beyond the obvious is holding him back hugely.

When you explain something to him about what's happening in a story/plot he looks at you in shock and wonder, and you can almost see a light bulb click in his head as he goes "oh!!!"

Even his comprehension of factual text is poor, unless the question is worded to find an "exact" match in the text he can't (seem to) do it.

He takes EVERYTHING so literally.

Sounds very difficult. My first thought was that he was just not interested in answering your questions rather than not understanding, but your second post suggests he really does struggle. Sorry, no idea what this could be or how to help him. Did the teacher not have any suggestions?

If he is taking things very literally and cant understand emotions have you considered aspergers ? I have no medical experience btw.

I remember once being told off my deputy head teacher in school and was told 'to pull my socks up'.
well..funnily enough when I did pull them up she wasnt amused..

She just said he needed to work on his comprehension. Thing is he'd really gone off the rails at school with his school work and has only just got back on them again. I'm wondering because he reads (and writes) so expressively, that maybe he's only putting his hand up to answer questions when it's a "straight" answer that's required - and getting them right (as he can do that without any problems). So on the bits he's just lost on he doesn't put his hand up so isn't noticed.

The main focus for her has been getting him back doing his school work (she tried him on each of the group tables to see if it would make a differene and then moved him to the front table with just one other person which has helped). And he's also got a short fuse, and (a few other issues) so she's got him in a small group that stay in from assembly once a week to work on "social skills" (he loves the group though doesn't think he needs to be in it ).

It's almst like in his world everything is black and white, with no shades of grey. Yet somehow he "masks" it.

He doesn't really question very much (unless it's about cars "how" or "why" - he just accepts as fact.

Really does sound a bit like aspergers. Im on an iphone cant link but could you try googling it ?

I've googled it before, have had fleeting moments, when he goes off on one for 1/2hr+. but then figured - he 10 1/2yrs old - surely if there was "something" somone would have spotted it by now. I've always found him hard going, I'm sure if I could remember all my past usernames there are probably lots of threads by me about him over the last 6yrs. Surely I would have realised something wasn't right before now? I mean I've had problems with him, but then we've had a lot going on over the last 3 or 4yrs at home, and maybe it's just me!

Im not sure . Ive seen threads on the relationship forum about people realising their partners have aspergers after years. Has your DS ever been assesed or anything like that ?

no he's never been assessed, He was a the "late" end of "normal" ages for most stuff, but at school did ok during infant schoo (though I struggled with him at home) l. YR3-4 he went off the rails, but that ties in with family stuff happening, I still find him really hard to manage at home, but I've got a lot of "missed" time (from family stuff derailing me) to catch up with him, so I'm not really surprised we have some issues (though when he gets upset over something it stilll throws me - but he's hormonal as well - so to be expected really I guess).

My DS has similar difficulties, he sees everything literally. His response to idioms are along the lines described by tropical.

Don't presume that if he had 'something' someone would have spotted it. You may find he has managed to disguise areas of difficulties so far, or perhaps the disparity in his reading/comprehension has been noticeable in school previously, but not enough to warrant comment or intervention.

Try posting on the Special Education threads for advice.

Im not that experienced in what to do here. If you are worried could you see your gp or maybe push the school for an assesement ? Im no sure who exactly you should see but even if it comes up with nothing then at least your mind would be at rest.
It is perfectly possible to miss something or it may just be nothing at all but at least youd feel as though you ve taken all the steps to find out iyswim.

See the problem is - his maths is really weak , and he's the same in that subject as well, he can't "think round" a problem. If the solution isn't really obvious, or he has to work out a solutin (especially if it's a "word problem") he really struggles to see how to do it.

You know, just for example, there's 3 slices of cake left, and 2 of them are sharing it out. DS2 would say - well that's easy 1 piece each and then cut the 3rd piece in half.

DS1 just wouldn't think of that.

Having said that - his mental maths has improved a little, but I'm not sure if that's because he's learned patterns rather than actually understanding what he's done.

Is it that the play rehearsals haven't really come together yet so he's not able to see the overall picture? Some of the other actors must still be pretty wooden at this point in rehearsals so it won't be rivetting or illuminating yet.

If he's reading expressively, writing imaginatively and has a good vocabulary then I think the empathy you feel he lacks will develop. It sounds to me as though he's putting down some good foundations.

no - it's not that unitarian. It's only a very short play, and we'd been through it together at home before - and the others that are doing it with him are very good so no woodeness about it at all.

He's 10 1/2yrs old. DS3 shouldn't he already be able to have some vague idea of (as MaryZ put it) "what are they thinking"? by now?

I don't know, I don't really know what's "normal" for 10 1/2yrs old. Maybe DS2 and 3 are more "advanced" in that area (for their respective ages), and DS1 is perfectly normal? My friends that have DC around his age all have children that are prediceted to get 5's across the board in YR6 - so don't even have anything to compare him to.

meant also to add - it's not jst the play - that was just a recent (fresh in my mind) example, it can be with any text, story, book, article he's reading that he'll totally miss the point, or taken everything literally.

or maybe this is his "reaction" to the stuff that's happened in our family. There's been some complicated stuff happened, and maybe his defense mechanism has just to simplify it all down.

I should try and sleep

Is it Aspergers or just being male? who knows, but a close friends ds has just been diagnosed. and he's just turned 21 !!
Maybe he just needs better 'training' to try and understand people's feelings or get beyond the surface.

Thanks Maryz - I don't know if he's improving, his school work has been pretty "static" up until very very recently, because of the other identifiable issues with behaviour. Plus for most of YR3 and quite a bit of YR4 he wasn't even getting enough work done for the teacher to have any hope o knowing how he was really doing.

On the surface it looks like he hasn't really improved, apart from in his writing (though that was, once he grasped in 3/4 o the way through YR1) always quite good. His current predicted grades, and current working level nw he's in YR5 aren't really that much higher than when he left infants in YR2.

I've said for a long time that DS1 is like the sort of person who would be walkin along and find a locked door in the middle of the pavement, he would spend all his time trying to get through the locked door that was directly in front of him, yet if he just looked at the problem in a slider wider view he'd see there was nothing either side of the door so he could just walk round it (iykwim?).

It was just "him", that's who he was, and it didn't seem to be causing him any issues. But now, it's really affecting him. I guess (aside from family issues) I'm only noticing it now as DS2 is 7 and in YR2 - he was a slow started (apart from in maths) at school as well, but now is doing well, and ask questions, and wants to know "why and how" much MUCH more than DS1 ever did.

DS3 is also very vocal these days, and I've realised that DS1 never used to ask me questions like (as the other day)

"Mummy, why do Teletubbies live under the ground".

DS1 just accepts things as fact.

Just because he may or may not have aspergers doesn't mean he can't be taught idiomatic language,inference and deduction. This is all part of reading development and although some kids just "get it", some might need more explicit teaching.

I work with a very bright ten year old who has aspergers and we have built lots of additional work on looking for clues/ evidence in texts that might not be explicitly expressed.

Lots of work on idioms also helps this (we have a display board full of them) and now we are at the point where my pupil actively looks for words and phrases that do not appear as they seem. There are some really good resources for this in Primaryresources .

Careful questioning on the text/ characters/ reasons for characters behaviour and intentions helps to develop these skills. Ask questions like "What do you think?" "How do you know?" "What is the evidence for that?" "Where might the story suggest that?" "What might happen next?" "Why do you think that?"

Just hearing a child read for the accuracy of the words is sometimes not enough and it sounds like he needs careful questioning when you hear him read or when you read to him so he can develop these skills.

oh I know the academic achievement is unimportant in the grade scheme of things, (I actually despise SATS and wish they'd scrap them), but I've found recently they do help give a general "picture" of where he's at. .

That's the thing with DS1 too, he's just so normal in so many ways, he walks to school on his own, can cook basic meals (albeit I did have to point out to him that the scrambled eggs weren't actually cooked recently) if given clear instructions. But then sometimes (I lurk on SN, also have done since before the days it was hidden) and sometimes think "DS1 does that too", and then kick myself because my DS's are all NT and I don't have the same issues to deal with as people on the SN boards.

I was impressed with his teacher, she'd been proactive in helping "doing" something so far (moving him round each table, giving him a chance at each, before finally moving to the front table obviously took some time), and the social skills group as well.

She told me lots of things she'd picked up on with his character that fitted exactly with what I experience at home. Though one thing she told me struck me as odd.

All the way through infants he was good at taking part in small groups, but hated putting his hands up and taking part in whole class discussions. This has now reversed itself. He'll put his hand up in a class discussion, but is struggling with small group situations. It's the same year group he's been in since reception (as Infants is a direct - automatic - feeder for the Juniors and most do go onto that particular Juniors). so it's not like he's with people he doesn't know well and is uncomfortable because of that.

I think he does have problems fitting in, he's not really sporty, and although he does have a friend he plays with a break/lunchtimes he has said to me that he doesn't really play with the the others as he's not interested in their games (running, football, bay bladers(?).

I second Maryz.