Most universities charging top fees

[emy72]

Article on BBC education front page, with a list of unis charging nearly all the top 9k or near enough.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12880840

I thought David Cameron said over and over again that this would be the exception............

I heard some Govt minister (sorry, can't remember who) the other day saying that it isn't up to the Uni to charge higher fees: they have no automatic right. He said they were only allowed to do it once they had demonstrated the widening access thingy.

To all those considering American Universities: I am behind you all the way, hoping that the Brain Drain will cause an English re-evaluation by the time it gets to DS thinking about Uni. The trouble is, once the higher fees are charged, I don't see how they can go back down - imagine the outcry from the generation that had to pay 3x£9000. Unless their debt is somehow written off.

to

OP - Cameron did say it would be the exception - it looks likely that in England it will be the rule. Scottish (and Europeans studying at Scottish UNIs) students pay no fees, Welsh currently are free (pay up £3375 from 2011) and NI discussing making it free (I think) - but English fine to be saddled in life with £27 k (£9k a year) debt - it is total discrimination and desperately unfair.

I think not too many people made a fuss previously as fees were around £3k a year - so a £9k debt didn't seem too horrendous but £27k + will seriously dissuade many - how many social workers, physios, lab technicians etc will want to take on that sort of burden. It is a mess and I have 4 DC all in teens so the prospect for me is total despair.

We don't have an alumni system that can give out scholarships and the "poor" criteria is usually flawed. Ordinary families in UK are just being squeezed and squeezed to their grave while non doms and big companies and foreign gangsters avoid tax and buy up London - Oh , I feel so depressed just thinking about it - perhaps that is why we are all meekly kind of "waiting to see" and not rampaging in the streets - its easier to just block it out.

What a suprise!!!!

I see a few universities disappearing in the next few years as prospective students start to ask serious questions about what their 9 grand is buying them.

My uni (part of the 1994 Russell Group) is not on the list yet but all the academics here (I'm in engineering) says the fees will be at 9000, but their not sure if they will announce it just yet. I.e. they may be waiting a year before they tell everyone even if it will be budgeted against! This may be true of a lot of other universitites too. They're seemingly on the fence but actually planning to ask the max amount.

As an interesting titbit one of my professors says his son who's just started his A-levels at an outstanding grammar has decided not to go to university - despite his fathers standing as an exeptional academic. His father wholeheartedly supports him and predicts a generation of young bright things who decide to make their way in life without tertiary education. I think those young people will be alright but I'm worried about what new (or reinforced old ones) gaps will open up in British society.

I have emmigrated to England and am raising an English family and I must say I've never seen such blatant discrimination against parts of a country (its supposed to be united isn't it?) ever in my life. And I come from a country with indigenous population and divisions too. It baffles me how no-one is taking these issues to the European courts and/or the court of human rights or other anti-discrimination athorities. For what its worth you may also wish to look beyond the english speaking countries. Poland and other eastern european countries are the favorite place for scandinavians to go for medical school and the courses are offered in english. You can also go to Scandinavia and complete degrees in English (for free) though living costs are high there.

Everyone will have to declare by 11 April so the next couple of weeks shoudl see lots of activity!

re the Scottish/English thing - it's becuase of the legal definition of country -Scotland (and Wales etc) are not countries so the fees ruling that means unis have to charge europeans students the same as home students doesn't apply to Scottish students charging English ones higher fees becuase England isn't a country.

Here's an interesting Guardian article about higher fees, and the hole it could put in Govt spending plans.

the thing is if the universities don't charge £9,000 with the cuts from central governrment some of them may end up going under. That may of course be what the government wants, but there can't be a sophisticated market if there is in effect no choice about the price the universities charge. It's ridiculous, because the academics are hardly paid well by anyone's standards and they really can't be cut much if at all in some places and still provide the education that the students now want.

Free market ecominics just don't work in this context. It was entirely predictable as other factors (plain old balancing the books at indiviudal university level, being seen as a lesser degree etc) are more persuasive

It's hilarious. Another massive own goal.

The hole in 2012-13 Treasury plans from maximum fees is £1bn. But they've already taken out £6.5bn from 2011-12, and more cuts in capital and other programmes: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12344506
So it's still cheaper for UK PLC.

The picture is pretty clear - fees will continue to rise until they reach full costs. Realistically fees and living costs cannot be lower than those for independent schools (who offer less), and most students will probably be facing at least "boarding school" level costs. Demand will cause the tertiary education field to "re-structure" much faster than in the past.

Everywhere else, saving for education starts before birth, and/or is supplemented/compensated for by extra working by parents and students. I can't really see the pockets of EU egalitarianism holding out for much longer either, we've been charging everyone else full fees for almost 40 years.

Bannas - Universities don't charge "foreign" eg. non EU students full cost, they charge them as much as they can get away with. They have been subsiding UK students for year with overseas students.

BTW the SNP think they have found a loop hole so they can charge EU students, basically an extra fee if you haven't lived in the country for 5 years (like the one Ireland charges apparently). So if you want to move to Scotland you need to move fast.

I think Oxbridge is going to be hit as well as some Russel group as the savvy (not necessarily rich) will be looking worldwide for the best return on £27000+, especially places which offer financial help.

Where is everywhere else though? Do you mean outside of the EU?

It may backfire on the "big UK university market" that has attracted millions of foreign students (a lot from the EU) to its doors. This could well be an opportunity for Eastern European or other universities elsewhere to offer a better value-for-money/high quality degree to English students.

I know even in Italy a lot of universities are now offering English speaking degrees. In Milan for example you can take a top-rated fashion degree, twinned with top design houses (who offer placements, expertise, etc) for substantially less than 9k a year. This is offered in English as well as Italian. If I was to study fashion I know where I would go. And that's just one example.

When it comes to my children going to uni - and it's a long way off - I will certainly be "shopping around", and I am sure I will not be on my own.

x posted with mummytime!!

Sorry emy72, but its probably because its not that long for me. Yikes 3 years for the eldest.

Tbh mummytime I think you'll find it hard to beat Oxford and Cambridge for a return on £27,0000.

I think I will just say to ds its not worth it unless it's a top uni or professional qualification.

But it never was, that's the whole point !

Squidgy, afaik the route to becoming a chartered accountant has been:-

Leave school with A levels

Find a training place with a chartered firm, train on the job and study for AAT part time.

Keep training on the job and be released to study chartered exams.

So it's always been possible to avoid university. A degree in accountancy isn't much good and it's best to start after A levels.

These fee increases have been hanging over us since there were announced as DD is in year 12 so the first to be affected. Coupled with the scrapping of EMA for the disadvantaged, we were actually in tears over the whole situtation. Just this week they have gone back on EMA and she will still get it next year albeit £10 per week less and it look like she will only need to borrow the 9K a year tuition fees. So 27K debt is much less than we anticipated and won't put her off doing a degree because she was seriously thinking about not applying.

I want her to have the experience of uni life that I never did. She wants to go in 2013 after a gap year and travelling and I think she will do well at university. Also if her A level grades don't get her into med school and earning a fortune to repay the debt then she might not pay anything back.

All in all we are much happier about the situtation this week.

In the US and other countries, people know they will have to pay for HE and start saving when the children are born - in the case of the US in tax efficient funds . We had no warning of how quickly this would happen in the UK and have not had a chance to do this.

Yellowstone - I agree £27K for oxbridge is very good value (and even at present they have extra burasaries for the "poor")but only very few students get in there.

I suppose over time things will adjust - in the 80's only 1/3 of 18 year olds went on to further ed -but what happens while things adjust? - my DC are going to be trying to negoiate through the chaos. Also successive govts have encouraged more unis to expand and colleges to seek uni status and more people were channelled into higher ed (kept unemployment down) - things you used to be able to train for on the job became graduate only jobs with a degree a requisite for entry.

Also who is the country for ?and why do we work for it (pay taxes etc to the grave) - it should provide for ALL our children - I feel the social contract is broken in this country - it is becoming more like the US with a nasty- look out only for your own, money is king,sink or swim approach.

Overseas students - much is made of the finance they bring in. However, the idea that they pay "full fees" is flawed. I used to work in Uni finance and the vast majority of overseas students do not pay the full stated amount. There are books full of grant making bodies and charities they can apply to for finance and scholarships etc and most get substantial help. The fees paid cover teaching and a contribution towards "capital costs" - lecture buildings, the libraries, heating etc but it is not costed precisely and does not really represent the true cost of how much the buildings cost to build and maintain. Also some courses -although the overseas fees seem high - e.g. medicine - do not cover the true cost of training. (Medical training costs around £250K per student, overseas students pay about £23k a year for 5 years so they are effectively being subsidised).

EU students rarely if ever repay their loans unless they stay in the UK - once they leave they are not traced and the debt is quietly shelved. In effect their Uni education is free.

Recovering and administering the loan system is hugely expensive (arguably more expensive than the old grant system),many women never repay all the loan (have children, work p-t etc so avoid the threshold for repayment)- it has been a mess for years, expanding it to cope with the higher fees will be a disaster.

haggis that comment about Oxford and Cambridge was simply in response to mummytime saying she thought that those two universities would be hit by people looking for value for money. I'd have thought that was pretty unlikely. According to the access officer for Churchill College who spoke to our school last week, each student at Cambridge costs £18,000 a year to educate. On that basis any home student going there from 2012 is getting a half-price deal. I also think the bursary schemes announced are extremely impressive.

Of course I take your point that not that many are lucky enough to benefit.

I'm not inclined to represent the hike in fees as a desperate, worry because I don't think that will help them. I'm not going to worry really either. My three eldest are all on the current fees of c.£3000 but my Y12 son and his four younger siblings will have to take on the much larger debt and pay it off themselves; I don't think the terms are outrageous. I can't help pay the fees up front but they know they'll get a small amount each from the house when I die. That's the best I can do and all I'm advising them is to please do the best that they can too!

I meant I'm not inclined to represent the hike in fees as a deperate worry to my lot because..

I have a degree from Oxford. Loved it. But I'm not sure any of my kids (except maybe the youngest) are Oxbridge material. Also for a good college (like my own) I know they frown on earning during term, which is balanced by holidays. However I do think having looked at it that Ivy League USA offers a very good alternative, although full fees are much higher, there is financial help for much higher incomes too.

But actually except for all-rounders who might choose Ivy league over Oxbridge; I think the greatest threat will be to Russell Group plus. Why pay more for a UK degree if you can get one from a higher world ranking one for less. (Never mind the extra-kudos from having studied overseas.)

But then maybe consider apprenticeships instead. Deloitte or BT.