Does excluding primary school children with special needs work?

[lars]

After my ds has had several exclusion from school I was just wandering, do mumsnetter believe it works in their experience.

What alternatives punishment were far better?

Do Primary SEN children really understand exclusion?

Larsxx

I think it a completely dumb idea and a cop out. They should be looking at the behaviours, when they occur, who with, where etc and trying to DEAL with them. EP should help with this but school prob has to ask and admit THEY need help?

I don't have a child with SN, but there were 2 very disruptive SN children in my son's reception class last year (one is now in his Y1 class, one is repeating reception). The one repeating reception is still such a handful that he is currently on half-days (afternoons only). He was previously excluded for violent incidents.

Am not sure that exclusion is entirely about "punishment" at this age, maybe/often more about giving everyone a chance at a fresh start. Also, when NT children see the SN kids "getting away" with disruptive behavior, the NT kids start acting up; they need to know what the consequences are if they act up, and it won't seem fair to them if SN child gets away with murder and they can't. So I don't see how the teachers can NOT resort to exclusion, at least sometimes, if they want to keep the NT kids in line.

I agree with Davros. It would be far better for the school to look at the reasons for the behaviour and how it can be resolved rather than just excluding the child. If my ds1 (autistic) had been excluded in the first term of Reception for hitting out at other children then the situation would almost certainly have got worse. Instead the staff realised that it was because ds1 couldn't physically tolerate other children crowding him. He was allowed a bigger space on the carpet to sit and that was the end of that.

Ds1 is now in Yr1 and doing very well. His new teacher admitted that she wasn't sure what to expect as she had no experience of autism but at ds1's review she described him as being "a member of the class". With the right attitude inclusion shouldn't have to end in exclusion.

It's a disgrace. And usually due to lack of suitable provision. The whole inlcusion thing with complete lack of appropriate support makes me livid.

Do you have a outreach worker or anything (with some understanding and half a brain- we have an excellent one who sorts out the ms schools when they start being ridiculous). If so enlist him/her to fight your battles.

I think exclusion in my experience don't work and primary children with SEN, soon learn that when they act up they go home. This is usually they can't cope in a particular situation.

Naughty children on the other hand don't appear to recieve exclusion as they never take it as far as SEN child - knows the difference.

My experince is the well behaved children would never act like this to get excluded anyway.

This is why the complete education and inclusion policy is just a joke and a shambles.

The SEN children are classed as naughty when they are trying to conform to a difficult situation for them.

One of ds's exclusion was not for wearing a art apron, doesn't like the feel of the fabric, etc.
He went into one because he couldn't deal with this as they tried to put it on him even though the school knew about it. larsxx

oh FFS! art apron? ds1 hasn't worn an art apron in years!

Excluded for not wearing an art apron????? WTF!

I agree that it doesn't work. Ds defiantely didn't understand it as exclusion - it was a holiday to him.

I also think that it is down to a lack of special needs provision and also sometimes down to the school not wanting to put in the extra effort to meet the needs of the child.

Ds last school was like that and they ended up making things much worse. Ds knew that he only had to play up to be sent home and he was so unhappy at school because of the strategies they were using with him that he always wanted to come home.

Instead of changing their stratagies they just kept excluding him. They really couldn't (or wouldn't) see that they were responsible for his behaviour becoming so extreme.

Ds new school have been great. They have done all they can to make sure ds feels safe and happy in the classroom. As a result he is doing really well and they haven't needed to send him home once let alone exclude him for longer periods.

amynnixmum, it really does sound similar to my ds's experience. Your new school sound's great and what a difference it's making to your ds.

I know when I told my ds old school he is not coming back they were so eager to know where he was going.

As for apron issue I did appeal to governors but they said the exclusion was warranted due to the extreme behaviours afterwards.

I really do hope a new school will be a positve move for ds, can it really be as bad as his old school. larsxx

we had the same problem School mismanagement led to escalation of behaviours (I was told this by 2 SALTs) who had observed the escalations. (basically the LSA wanted him t bead thread- he didn't so she tried to physically force him to- he lashed out- surprise surprise). Luckily he wasn't excluded - but he's now in a special school where sensory issues etc are understood and they work with him, rather than against him, and don;t try to normalise him.

Absoultely ridiculous trying to force a child with sensory issues to wear an apron.

TBH, I think most schools know that exclusion is inappropriate and ineffective for a child with SN. The problem is, as always, underfunding. If these children's needs were identified and met earlier before frustration led to bad behaviour, then many kids wouldn't head down that path.

What happens is the child becomes more and more frustrated and copes less and less well and this inevitably leads to a downturn in behaviour.

The government thinks they're saving money by limiting schools to 2 Ed Psych evaluating sessions per year. They need to see the bigger picture and consider the long term cost of letting it get that far.

Bakabat, we were discussing the 'school dinner' thing in the staffroom and I just wondered whether it applied to schools such as your DS's (thinking about the sensory thing as we have a Y1 child with newly diag. AS who has same packed lunch every day)

I see where you're coming from freakyzebra but shouldn't the NT children understand about diversity and differences and that children with special needs sometimes need to have simple changes made so they can stay in the classroom. Obviously if its anythign and everything then they are in the wrong environment or much more support is needed. Excluding a child with SN doesn't give everyone a break, only the staff and the other children. If things are going wrong then I can see that the other children might need that break but the staff are supposed to be managing this. I don't envy them one bit mind you but one of the most dangerous things I've come across over the years is when people (often professionals) don't KNOW they don't KNOW iyswim.

What I should add is that in reality it does happen (excluding SN kids) because schools get to the stage of thinking that they can't cope any longer.
IME, when it gets that far, most Heads despair of the system but feel the need to look after the other kids. Very few schools that I know of just want to get rid of SN children.

It is a bit silly though, excluding a child who it probably means nothing to and very likely makes their home/family situation worse. It shouldn't get to that but I agree that a lot of m/s teachers are left to struggle with Govt ideology (sp?) and some just won't believe that they don't know best

I don't think it is realistic to expect 4-6yo children to understand certain special needs if the only place they encounter SN kids is in the classroom, and if those kids otherwise look "normal"... my 5yo could grasp that a kid in a wheelchair can't walk; he can't easily understand why the girl in his class with tenative DAMP diagnosis is physically unable to sit still & upright for more than 30 seconds or take turns talking to the teacher. The adults can understand that, bit of a stretch for a 5yo.

Totally agree it's a resource problem, though.

zebra- the kids at ds1's ms nursery understood his SN very well. When asked to explain the rules to a new child- one little boy added his own ("we have to be patient for the children who find it difficult to talk and wait for them to get their PECS cards"). One of the things that made ds1's nursery manager livid when he started schoo, was the fact that ds1 was expected to blend into normality when she believed a simple explanation would have been enough for the other children to comrehend.

Ds2 understands bit about autism and he's 3.

The biggest problem isn't the other children (under the age of 8 or so they're fine and very accepting/accomodating) ime it's the teachers (and yes of course some are excellent but you'll always come up against those that refuse to get it- you need to look for an understanding head/senco- then you're OK).

Bakabat, as I posted earlier, we now have a child in school recently diagnosed as AS and if I'm perfectly honest, I'm very nervous about when he comes to my class. To be even more honest, I'm probably dreading it. This isn't because I have a negative attitude towards SN children, it's because I don't feel I've had the training (either as an undergrad or during INSET) to help this child reach his potential. At the moment he gets no real targeted help. He has no statement yet although I understand his parents are now following that process.
There are no courses on ASD available to MS teachers in our authority so how do we make inclusion (which I'm all for BTW) work when all many of us are really doing is paying lip service to it and muddling through the year before passing these children on.

How about pushing for some proper training at the next staff meeting and threatening to write into TES if it's not forthcoming, homemama?

Reading this makes me feel so, so grateful that my dd is in a unit. My dd deserves so much better than what is offered ms.

I have to say Zebra that most kids do understand and accept the children with sn, it's the parents I find that don't.

Sorry ladies, fell asleep. Scummy, we have asked for it and been told that they'll try and send someone to do a twilight staff meeting. Not sure it will happen or indeed how much we can learn in 1.5hours.
Blossom, I'm sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention. I was just being honest and saying that I think MS training isn't sufficient to meet the needs of many children. I believe that inclusion should be strived for wherever possible but to make the most of it we need more training.

Even ds1 (5 and autistic) has a little understanding of SN - although typically he doesn't seem to realise it relates to him too. He has a habit of telling people " can't talk properly yet" - which kind of throws them a bit when amidst the gobbledigook ds2 comes out with a clear and perfectly pronounced sentence.

Homemama - Ds1's new teacher said something similar at the parents consultation evening. She said that despite having several meetings with the Reception teacher to talk about ds1 she wasn't sure quite what to expect. To make matters even more confusing for her this term was ds1's first without his own support in the classroom. The poor woman was effectively thrown in at the deep end. Fortunately the surprise turned out to be a pleasant one for her as ds1 settled in well and actually found the transition to Yr1 much easier than most of his class.

The success of inclusion seems to be down to pure luck rather than policy IMHO. I also have to admit that when I first heard that ds1 would no longer be getting his own LSA my first thought was about whether this was because ds1 was ready to take that step or because it was a convenient way to save money from the SN budget.

If the parents are on board you can find out a lot from them, and there is reams and reams of info on autism very easily available. DS1's nursery manager had no experience or training in autism when my friends dd started there- she trained herself and is now excellent.

I wasn't talking about teachers who try their best on limited time/budgets etc, I know the situationis dire. DS1's year 1 teacher did try her best but she kind of flipped between really trying and really despairing. She still got things hideously wrong though like trying to force ds1 into a room with a flashing fluorescent light. Anyone who knew only a tiny bit about autism would have told her there was no way he would go in there (and autism outreach were in, I was in- there were plenty of people to ask), but anyway she tried her best. I was talking about the ones who Don't take on board anything about disability. Such as ds1's first teacher who asked me to "explain" ds1 that "pinching hurts" . FFS- utterly ridiculous. Had she read his report sshe would have known that his language development was at a 12 month level and I had sent in a lot of information o how to deal with thoser sorts of behaviours. It just involved the big leap of listening to the parent.

TBH I'm pleasaed the school turned out to be so ropy as his special school is fantastic, and the education he received in the 2 places doesn't compare. Unless a child is very high functioning I am not an advocate for mainstreaming at all. I think it short changes children with SN. My son was never officially excluded but he wasn't ever included in anything either. Or taught anything come to that. Thank god he;s in a place where he now takes part in everything. So hear hear to blossomhill.

I still don't see how my little kids can be expected to understand something that doesn't have a name (diagnosis), and that neither the parents, the child, pediatrician or the teachers themselves can understand (or explain what it means). And you can rant & rave that it shouldn't be so, that it should be possible to diagnose a 5yo's problems, but that's not how the reality is working IME.

In the meantime I suppose you're arguing that 5-6yo children should simply accept that X and Y are "special", and that's why they don't get punished in the same way that most of the other children would, if they headbutt, kick, bite, run away, scream, shout, eat blue tack, etc. Many of the children will of course feel compelled to test the situation out, see exactly what they can get away with, and having been punished more for seemingly lesser crimers, they will find it easy to resent X & Y who (seemingly) get away with murder....

Just thought I would add my tuppence here. I am very much against the closures of special schools. For some children, inclusion into mainstream schools is brilliant and works very well, but for others it's a nightmare. State schools have neither the facilities nor the resources to cater for children with special needs. My brother has SEN (there isn't a name for what he has, but he cannot 'learn' anything and needs constant supervision) and he went to a wonderful special school. There they not only taught their pupils how to read and write (for those able to learn this) but also how to make a cup of tea, a sandwich, how to get on the bus, role-playing everyday situations to make them confident. His school is now closed, which means that if he was still in education today, he'd have a 10 mile trip to the nearest special school which is full, or he would be enrolled into a state school.

SEN children don't just need education, they need to be taught social skills, how to handle themselves, how to build up their confidence so that they can go into a shop and buy a bag of crisps, or how to make a simple sandwich. This simply isn't possible in state schools.