Does excluding primary school children with special needs work?

[lars]

After my ds has had several exclusion from school I was just wandering, do mumsnetter believe it works in their experience.

What alternatives punishment were far better?

Do Primary SEN children really understand exclusion?

Larsxx

but in lars case zebra- the school knew her son had sensory issues- they pushed the wearing of an apron (pointless silly stuff). Avoid wearing an apron (or let him have a cotton one) and hey problem solved. It doesn't need a name to say "x finds it difficult to wear plastic as its all itchy" or something. Hardly rocket science. Would you exclude a child for kicking off when forced to walk over hot coals? Persumably not. it doesn't take much reading (or time) to find out something about sensory issues.

I didn't realise the thread was only about Lars' DS.

well I don;t think it has to be exclusive!

Ime (and from the looks of it in other cases as well) the behavioural issues have been as a result of mismanagement by school staff (DS1 has never shown behaviours he showed at ms school anywhere else), to then exclude a child seems pretty unfair. The behaviours should be being dealt with. As Davros said often the problem is the people involved don't realise they are making a pigs ear of the whole thing, and so don't even ask to access the support that would be available.

In the end in ds1's case I sent in a behavioural chart thing and asked for it to be pinned above ds1's workstation so that anyone working with him could refer to it and give an appropriate response. I was fortunate though- my spies told me what was going on so I had some understanding of how they were cocking up.

I'm completely anti inclusion anyway - I don't think it really suits anyone - except the most able (being able socially is more important than being able academically), but exclusion because as school can't cope and there is no alternative provision is not fair on the child or the family.

bakabat, i totally agree with you.
My experience has been very upsetting as there has been many issues that the school refuse to admit they were wrong on many occasions i.e like humulation of a child. There are so many in fact I think I would have rebelled in the circumstances.

Freaky zebra, In my opinion the childen have been more accepting of DS, but the teachers have taken it personal against ds and myself even though he has a diagnosis. The senco who was trying to help ds got in the neck from the other teachers and they felt it was unfair she was spending more time with ds. But I was told he needed more help than the other children. I understand you haven't a sen child, so may be you don't understand that many parents struggle with a education system that request that your child should attend a mainstream school because they have closed down all the suitable special schools that would have suited my ds.
Unfortunately I am struggling with ds just to be included not excluded from school.
I hope you never have to be in this awful position of a system that is failing your child due to theie SEN. larsxx

Zebra - that's it label all sn kids as being aggressive why don't you! And as for the "special" remark, how insulting!

My dd does none of the things described by yourself and infact as the teacher herself said dd is far easier to deal with than children that come in having a sh*t upbringing and bringing the behaviour into class and the teachers haven't a clue why! The reason I don't send my ds to dd's school is their are so many children with emotional and behavioural difficulties due to the home life. The unit children are no trouble at all and I wouldn't have any worries about him being there.

Lars, I really feel bad for the mum of the girl in DS1's class who has unspecified/unknown SN. The mother is struggling with the system and it's a horible burden for her. Her DD can be as lovely as any of the children (even for me, the untrained & unqualified parent volunteer) on a one-to-one basis.

All I'm saying is that I can understand why teachers feel they have to have exclusion as an option with SN kids, in some cases....given the disruptive and yes, sometimes aggressive behavior plus lack of other resources that is the reality of schools.

I think that given a little time most children (at infant level anyway) do understand differences pretty well. After all even in mainstream just the age gap at reception/yr1 can make a huge difference to how well children cope at school. Our school has a behavioural unit, and these children are partially integrated into the school (they give assemblies, and spend at least some time in the playground together) one of them is a friend of ds, and he doesn't appear to be concerned that this boy is autistic. Likewise with my nephew and neice (autistic and downs) given the occasional chat about why my neice is allowed (well not much you can do to stop her!) to eat everything in reach, and makes funny noises, and why my nephew may shout in a rather alarming way, they cope just fine. I have never noticed either of my children attempt to eat gravel, so I really don't think that it makes them think they can do it too. It does take a special teacher who is comfortable with differnces, and has learnt good ways to explain these issues, but I do belive that four and five year olds (and younger children too) can understand, and actually be very helpful and sensitive to SEN children (my children are 5 & 6). It is the secondary age children that can be very different, and I think that inclusion at secondary level is very very difficult to get to work - apart from the fact that secondary schools can be very scary places for children with SEN, especially if they have sensory issues.

but zebra- the lea has a legal obligation to provide a "suitable" education for all its pupils- including those with SN. If they've shut special schools that would have been suitable then ms have to cope - full stop. If that means that the LEA has to provide ms schools with more funding then so be it.

That's why I always tell parents having problems with inclusion (including ms children being affected) to complain, not to the school, but to the policy makers, mp's etc. Govt isn't going to give a shit about the views of parents of kids with SN, we're not a big enough group- but if a whole bunch of ms parents complain as well they may start to lkisten and provide the extra resources/reopen special schools/ units etc. Won't happen whilst the "problem" can just be excluded though.

Agree completely nooka.

Her DD can be as lovely as any of the children (even for me, the untrained & unqualified parent volunteer) on a one-to-one basis. By freakyzebra on Wednesday, 26 October, 2005 7:04:32 PM

Yet again another flying statement that the mother of this child would be horrified to hear. I am just stunned at your ignorance to be honest Zebra.

Have you been into a primary school lately? I can tell you there are plenty of nt children that I would not describe as "lovely".

But not all children with SN are "disruptive" or "aggressive". Ds1 is in many ways an ideal pupil. He is almost incapable of breaking school rules because as part of his ASD he believes that they are all-important. He is not an aggressive boy by any means. In fact it seems to be the NT children who hurt him^ rather than the other way around - as evidenced by some of the notes he has brought home explaining the reasons for his various bruises and cuts. Children with SN are by no means the only ones who can be aggressive or disruptive.

That's true CT- ds1 isn't remotely aggressive (unless pinned down and physically forced to bead thread) Hmm wonder what would happen if you pinned down an NT child

bakabat, truly understand what your saying.
Infact you have said many things that have related to my experience.

I do feel like going to downing street and saying to oh Tony Blair and Ruth Kelly.
Maybe to tackle the behaviour issues in all schools maybe they shouldn't haved closed all the special schools/units that were doing a good job.

Don't get me wrong I 'm all for inclusion in a main stream school providing you have teachers trianed in that area. Infact what I have seen with the some of the teachers in ds's old school they are behind the times and don't really want to include SEN children. Oh tell a lie only the children that are not able to move or speak - not meant to cause any offense here, but that is exactly how they are. larsxx

I agree that a lot of inclusion is just rubbish. Am horrified by the way so many children with special needs are just bullied by schools - physically forcing kids to do stupid things like thread beads or wear a sodding apron is just so mindlessly stupid. And they say the kids have special needs! Duh.
I just think it's obvious that children can accept from a very early age that we are not all the same. For example, they know their younger siblings are different to them and can't do the same things and need different food/activities etc. I

Aloha, My ds's old school, as just moved him.
They had the attitude that ds must fit in like the other children. But ds wasn't like the other children that's why ds has a statement.

I realy didn't know why I didn't move him earlier, I supposed scared of the change as ds doesn't like any change. Also taking pictures of your child while having a rage, saying it was for statementing purposes, just shows this school for what it is. larsxx

Oops sorry, didn't realise this thread was kinda exclusive.

And just what is wrong with saying that SEN kids are "special" anyway? That's what I tell my dd, so shoot me!

Rottenrhubarbwitch,
Welcome to the thread, this is not exclusive by any means and I don't know any of the posted personally.
As for 'special' I really dont have a problem with that all. larsxx

I guess being a mum of a child with special needs I am going to be very sensitive.

It highlights yet again how sn children are discriminated against.

I personally find the "special" remark insulting as what does that make my nt ds? Not special?

I also disagree that you have to tell children that their classmate is 'special' - you can simply explain they have different needs, because we are all different. Whole class discussions about difference are a fantastic idea IMO.

I think the worst thing about much education is how monolithic it is (as I said on another thread). The whole ethos of the national curriculum etc puts far too much emphasis on educating children as 'units' instead of people. More individual treatment for ALL children would surely be helpful.

BH - but FZ quite deliberatley put it in ""'s, presumably partly because this is the language used in schools, and maybe the preception of kids, and maybe because there isn't quite the right word, if there isn't a named diagnosis, and because it is part of the phrase 'special needs'. She puts "normal" in "" lower down because we all know that we are using that word in a less than ideal way, perhaps.

No of course it doesn't make your NT ds not-special - but the alternative is either to use a v specific dx'd term - or something 'negative' about the child with special needs.

Yes, SN children are discrimintaed against, but yelling at people who are basically on your side won't help!

It's like the whole 'labelling' argument though isn't it? What term is pc, what is not? What do you call Asian or African people? Ethnic minorities? Coloured? Black? What do you call people with a handicap? Physically disabled? Less able-bodied?

I explain to my dd that her uncle and her nephew are special because they cannot and will not be able to do the things that she can do. She knows that she is special too, but she also fully understands me when I explain the term 'special' in relation to SEN. I will not apologise for using it. No matter what term I come up with, someone will be offended.

I'm not saying special is a bad word, just that we don't have to pick out one child who is different and give them a label. My argument is that if education could be more tailored to the individual's needs, aptitudes etc, then you wouldn't have to single out one child. We are all different.

And for those children for whom mainstream is a total waste of time, then there should be excellent specialist provision.

I am glad that ms didn't work for dd when she went for 6 months into ds's nursery.

Looking back with her language disorder she was never going to cope without any support and am now grateful that she is doing about 85% ms and 15% unit and coping. So for me I am very lucky as dd is in the very best place for her.

However I do feel that a lot of people do look at children with sn as 2nd class citizens and lump them into 1 category instead of seeing them for the individuals they are. It is that which upsets me the most.

Blossomhowl, You are right people including some teachers are quick to judge rather then help.

I have learn't alot along the way. The friends that I feel comfortable with is the friends that understand that children are different. larsxx